Treating against Verroa is a short term solution

[Cie]

This is an interesting paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ece3.248/pdf which quotes some work done on examining untreated colonies in France and Sweden.

Host adaptations reduce the reproductive success of Varroa destructor in two distinct European honey bee populations.

 

[drstitson]

not new.

these are feral colonies.

typically these are 800-odd m apart

whereas

apiaries have multiple hives 1m apart.

virulence decreases with vertical transmission (as per isolated colonies) and increases with horizontal transmission (as per crowded neighbours).

managed colonies don't swarm ie have no extended broodless period. feral colonies probably swarm every year. so swarm gets to build new clean comb and donor gets new queen and a broodless period.

interestingly feral colonies have around 20% drone brood - counterintuitive given that varroa not being actively managed.

 

[Cie]

So everything you've written points to the fact that our interference/management of hives is the problem.

We create the problem with our management techniques, try and treat with chemicals that prevents the bee from learning/changing to be able to deal with Varroa.

That was my understanding too.

 

[For want of a better word]

virulence decreases with vertical transmission (as per isolated colonies) and increases with horizontal transmission (as per crowded neighbours).

as opposed to social housing in city suburbs!

 

[drstitson]

No.

we need approaches to varroa management appropriate for our models of beekeeping.

 

[Cie]

Hah, good luck with that. Intensive beekeeping methods really aren't any good for the bees.

 

[drstitson]

Unfortunately it isn't viable to produce honey for the market using widely scattered single TBHs.

I'm certainly not advocating US style commercial practices BUT in reality we have to come up with methods suitable for apiary (1-50 say) beekeeping.

 

[Chris B]

.... prevents the bee from learning/changing to be able to....

"Learning" in this context means living or dying. Survival of the fittest. I don't see many beekeepers of any persusaion willing to sacrifice all/most of their bees every year just to remove unsuitable genes from the gene pool.

 

[mbc]

Hah, good luck with that. Intensive beekeeping methods really aren't any good for the bees.

On the contrary, normal beekeeping management methods will have saved countless swarms this season, whereas I would guess that the vast majority of swarms unfortunate enough not to find a beekeeper will perish this coming winter given the rubbish summer.
Bees and beekeeper a symbiotic relationship ?

 

[Into the lions den]

On the contrary, normal beekeeping management methods will have saved countless swarms this season, whereas I would guess that the vast majority of swarms unfortunate enough not to find a beekeeper will perish this coming winter given the rubbish summer.
Bees and beekeeper a symbiotic relationship ?

Absolutely.

TBH beekeeping scattered widely? You are as well just letting the bees go feral and banning beekeeping as practiced by a plethora of good and bad and indifferent beekeepers of all scales.

Then let those who advocate it explain why they cant get their apples, pears, cherries, etc etc................or even honey itself.......any more.

The non intervention and widely spread out route would mean a tiny fraction of todays bee population being left, and we do not have enough bees to do all the pollination even now. It would also mean many of the forum members wouold be prevented from keeping bees, as someone else had a colony within a kilometer or thereabouts.


Maybe we would have the 'bee police' stalking the land, petrol can in hand, burning hidden illicit beehives? ( joke btw, before anyone thinks I am serious.)

 

[Cie]

I love the replies, they make me smile

So often on this forum there is discussion about "Verroa proof bees" with people demanding proof that these mythical beings exist. When a paper appears giving that proof, with colonies lasting more than 10 years without treatment it amuses me that people don't see it.

I'm beginning to realise that it's pointless even bringing such research to the attention of the masses here, who typically aren't open to the suggestion of change.

Enjoy!

 

[mbc]

It amuses me that bunny huggers dont even see themselves as arrogant when they assume they know better than the average countryman who manages quite well without campaigning for the "new" and "enlightened" way all the time.
Cie,
Havent got time for a fight this morning but as a sneaky parting shot I would imagine from your naive reply the other posters on this thread have read and digested the paper with far more clarity than yourself and "get it" to a much greater degree

 

[Brosville]

Whatever the ramifications may be for beekeepers who have lots of closely spaced hives, the paper underlines the fact that the much-denigrated "natural beekeepers" really are "getting it right" by not treating, not drone culling, allowing them to swarm naturally etc.....

It may be an "inconvenient" truth for other beekeepers, but it shows it works.......

 

[theboynelson]

In my own limited experience, the initial losses attributed to varroa seems to be dying down somewhat. I wonder if this has to do with a natural resistance to the mites.

It could just be wishful thinking but maybe it is darwinism in action.

 

[Into the lions den]

It comes along in an undulating pattern. Some years you see very little of it, other years its huge. The natural variations in seasons and varroa populations mean you cannot read too much into anything until you are through a minimum 5 year pattern. There were a lot of brood breaks this year, which suppresses varroa a bit, ditto last year. We have had very little varroa firefighting to do the last few seasons, since 2009 in fact the summers have not been varroa summers. It has gone high in some colonies, but many have stayed low so that only winter oxalic has been needed.

Thus I suspect the pattern you are seeing is more weather related than anything else. If next year is a season with long and prolific brood rearing then it may be the exact opposite.

 

[simoncav]

Even if there were colonies of mythical varroa resistant bees, the chances of being able to select and then successfully breed large numbers of colonies in the UK with these characteristics is just about impossible without a central (prob Government funded) series of bee breeding stations as they do in many countries in Eastern Europe...

So, as we created the problem, we have to solve it and not hope the bees can do it for us... Thats why I'm very interested in the work being done by Aberdeen University funded in part by Vita.

....Waits for explosion of rage by assorted bunny huggers......

 

[drstitson]

Brosville - i'm not knocking natural beekeeping (although I wouldn't suit the floaty dress for inspections) and the paper linked by Cie (and stuff presented by Tom Seeley at NHS 2011) support the fact that "natural" colonies can live in equilibrium with varroa.

BUT

at the end of the day beekeeping for many (especially commercial concerns like ITLD) HAS to be run on an intensive efficient basis. unavoidable unless we are to suggest everyone who eats honey has to have a hive in their garden with no commercial sales or imports.

However i'd argue that true Natural beekeeping is more beeHOSTING.

 

[madasafish]

I run TBHs . This year the varroa drop is minimal. So what? It's been a year of stops and starts and sudden swarms.

Anyone who suggests a TBH is suitable for mas production of honey is at best naive and at worst being deliberately deceitful and worth ignoring. They are rubbish at producing bulk honey.

I read all this stuff about "natural" this and that largely written by people who have no chance of feeding 10 people with their product let alone hundreds and thousands which we need to do considering how most people live in cities..

As for varroa tolerant bees, I'll let you all know in 2022 if my bees are: unless they have died out first

 

[Brosville]

"Anyone who suggests a TBH is suitable for mas production of honey is at best naive and at worst being deliberately deceitful and worth ignoring. They are rubbish at producing bulk honey" - I've certainly never suggested such a thing, and I get the impression that some people are so keen to "have a pop" that they are bending over backwards to invent reasons for doing so............

 

[drstitson]

not having a pop at all.