To super or not?

[Rover Girl]

It's a lovely day in Dublin and the bees in both hives very busy - to super or to wait? Thoughts please!

 

[Ely]

It depends if they need the space. Usually super if the are 7/8 frames of brood, both sides. If it is t-shirt weather have a look and see

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It depends if they need the space. Usually super if the are 7/8 frames of brood, both sides. If it is t-shirt weather have a look and see

bees being busy is one thing, bt doubtful there is need for supers yet. No point in thinking of supering unless you have at least eight frames of brood

 

[YorkshireBees]

I have supered most of my hives with supers containing frames that have either crystallised OSR in or part filled with nectar from last year.

My personal reasoning was that any colony starting to run down on stores would be able to use the frames.

I put the supers on just over a week ago and as today was the last half decent day I went and checked the colonies that I know are lower on stores.

I swapped any, now empty frames for some more that are part filled and found at least one colony storing fresh nectar!

** In my case all but one of the colonies are very strong and as I said I had an alternative reason for supering as I'm not expecting a flow until the weather is consistently better **

 

[itma]

... No point in thinking of supering unless you have at least eight frames of brood

Not being contrary, BUT, if your supers are new boxes filled with new frames fitted with foundation ... I'd suggest offering it to them a little early, so that it can get a bit of newness knocked out of it.
Some would even suggest sticking the brand new super under the brood for a week or so (for that reason), before putting it on top.


That said, I do absolutely agree that 'busy-ness' isn't the measure of whether or when to super. Its about the number of bees, the amount of brood and the amount of space they might need for nectar-ripening as well as for more brood ...
And yet again, a see-through coverboard can help you to observe how things are progressing without the major disturbance of opening up.

 

[Heather]

Not being contrary, BUT, if your supers are new boxes filled with new frames fitted with foundation ... I'd suggest offering it to them a little early, so that it can get a bit of newness knocked out of it.
Some would even suggest sticking the brand new super under the brood for a week or so (for that reason), before putting it on top.

QUOTE]


I personally put super with new foundation above but without QE for 1 week to encourage them up to build.

 

[itma]

I personally put super with new foundation above but without QE for 1 week to encourage them up to build.

Heather, my point was just to note that with a new box/foundation, one should err on the side of earlier rather than later, and be prepared to have to "play tricks" if necessary to get them to move up.
There are lots of tricks possible - but often, in time, none are strictly necessary. However, sometimes ...

 

[Chris B]

They may need a super, they may not. You need to look, t-shirt weather or not (agree with the clear crownboard suggestion though). There are lots of bees around that do need a super.

You don't need to count frames of brood. Just look at the volume of bees. Are they close to filling the brood box? Then add a super.

If in any doubt, add a super. Adding the super slightly early is a very small sin compared to adding one late.

 

[Tonyatcwfarm]

It's a lovely day in Dublin and the bees in both hives very busy - to super or to wait? Thoughts please!

Hi rover girl
Do you see the addition of super necessary for nectar storage or for brood rearing
I too have two colonies presently on supered nationals(no qx) both busy but mostly pollen coming in
Still too cold in Westmeath for t shirts so me and bees are staying wrapped up for a few weeks

 

[TOBY-3652]

They may need a super, they may not. You need to look, t-shirt weather or not (agree with the clear crownboard suggestion though). There are lots of bees around that do need a super.

You don't need to count frames of brood. Just look at the volume of bees. Are they close to filling the brood box? Then add a super.

If in any doubt, add a super. Adding the super slightly early is a very small sin compared to adding one late.

very true i have supers on 6 hives,,2 weeks ago they all had 4 or 5 frames of brood, both sides, and now looking at the top of the frames theres about 1 frame to be covered with bees. and the rape is starting to flower. so i have supered up

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Not being contrary, BUT, if your supers are new boxes filled with new frames fitted with foundation ... I'd suggest offering it to them a little early, so that it can get a bit of newness knocked out of it.

For what? never had to get the 'newness' knocked out of them, if bees need the space, they'll use it - too much space too early (it's still only March) is going to knock a small colony back - bit different if OSR is in full blast I'll concede

 

[itma]

For what? never had to get the 'newness' knocked out of them, if bees need the space, they'll use it - too much space too early (it's still only March) is going to knock a small colony back - bit different if OSR is in full blast I'll concede

Its not uncommon for bees to be reluctant to "go up" into a new super, especially with new foundation.
Had it myself when I started, and accordingly its something I've tended to listen out for. Turns out it happens quite a lot, with all-new kit.
Putting it underneath - where the bees have to go through it - gets it the colony odour, a start on propolis varnishing, etc, and generally makes it more attractive for immediate use once it goes on top. Underneath its not making much difference to heat loss, but if the bees should think they need the space, they can make a start on the comb-drawing.

And I'd emphasise that *usable* space for the bees means drawn comb.
Adding foundation does not immediately give the bees "space". Yes it gives them extra volume and wall area (which means more heat loss), but it doesn't give them space to use for brood and nectar ripening until it is drawn.

Very soon now, the queen's laying will go into overdrive (2000 eggs per day is not far short of a full side of a National brood frame in a day) at exactly the same time that the need for nectar-ripening space is also soaring. Add in a little too much residual winter stores and it can be appreciated that usable drawn comb "space" can suddenly come under pressure! And as noted by JBM, OSR is but one of the spring flows that can precipitate this situation.
Even the bees can be surprised to find that their comb needs can increase faster than they can expand onto foundation! And when that happens, the classic response is to try and swarm ...

 

[REDWOOD]

Location location, nothing really flowers here until April well nothing to talk about

 

[YorkshireBees]

Location location, nothing really flowers here until April well nothing to talk about

Location and available forage is a big factor.
Size and health of a colony is also another factor.

Unfortunately most of the decisions in beekeeping are personal choices built on experience.

What is right (in my opinion) for my own colonies may not be right for a beekeeper just down the road!

Advice can be given but the greatest ability for any beekeeper is NOT to blindly follow advice given but to think about all advice given and decide what is best for their own circumstances.

My opinion anyway.

 

[itma]

...

What is right (in my opinion) for my own colonies may not be right for a beekeeper just down the road!

Advice can be given but the greatest ability for any beekeeper is NOT to blindly follow advice given but to think about all advice given and decide what is best for their own circumstances.

My opinion anyway.

"Best" ... !

For the beginning beekeeper, with few colonies, the "best" choice should be the one with the least catastrophic downside.
I offer that opinion in the hope of saving the ambitious from themselves!
The new beek should not be aiming to maximise anything - rather to steer a middle course and avoid identified risks, considering their downside.
Supering too early risks slightly slowing the colony build-up.
Supering too late risks swarming. If the swarm is lost, that effectively loses the prospect of a crop from that colony this year.
An excellent strategy is to try and avert risks with that sort of downside!

 

[Rover Girl]

Thanks for all the diverse thoughts, all really helpful - now pouring with rain and I've stopped thinking about it until after the coming cold snap. I'll likely super early rather than later, as I'm much more aware of the need for space after last year's swarm!! It's all part of learning though.
The plus side of the swarm was that I have 2 strong colonies now...but definitely aiming to keep it at 2 for this year!

 

[YorkshireBees]

"Best" ... !

For the beginning beekeeper, with few colonies, the "best" choice should be the one with the least catastrophic downside.
I offer that opinion in the hope of saving the ambitious from themselves!
The new beek should not be aiming to maximise anything - rather to steer a middle course and avoid identified risks, considering their downside.
Supering too early risks slightly slowing the colony build-up.
Supering too late risks swarming. If the swarm is lost, that effectively loses the prospect of a crop from that colony this year.
An excellent strategy is to try and avert risks with that sort of downside!

I totally agree which is why I wrote the line

Unfortunately most of the decisions in beekeeping are personal choices built on experience.

before the part that you quoted.

My own experience is limited but by keeping 10+ hives for a few years I believe it has increased more than if I had 1-2 hives. I certainly have come upon many different situations sooner than I probably would have.

I am a firm believer of supering earlier rather than later as I followed the general rule of only supering when there were x number of frames of bias in the brood box once and found that most of the hives prepared to swarm either before they reached the x number or pretty soon after.
My management technique has altered since then and the main thing is to learn and gain experience each year.

In essence the sayings "Bees don't read the books" or "Bees don't follow rules" are quite true. Also I personally believe reading the bees and anticipating what they need is very important.

 

[fiftyjon]

Unfortunately most of the decisions in beekeeping are personal choices built on experience.

What is right (in my opinion) for my own colonies may not be right for a beekeeper just down the road!

Advice can be given but the greatest ability for any beekeeper is NOT to blindly follow advice given but to think about all advice given and decide what is best for their own circumstances.

My opinion anyway.


...Also I personally believe reading the bees and anticipating what they need is very important.