This is what happened, but what should I have done?

[Canary Honey]

My strongest hive has built up rapidly this spring, occupying most of the deep and two shallows with mostly brood but also some stores, I knew to keep a close eye on this one for swarming. This is a one year old queen, daughter of a swarm that came to me, always been a good layer but we have never seen her so hasn’t been marked. I don’t use a queen excluder, leaving them to go ‘free range’.
About a week ago there were a number of queen cups, so I add another shallow with partially drawn foundation (best I could offer)

Last night we checked on their progress, there were numerous Q-cups with larvae and two sealed. In a minor half panic and not sure how to split the invisible queen I decided to take a frame with a sealed queen cell and some bees to a new hive, hopefully leaving the old queen in the original hive.

Obviously many of the bees in the new hive have returned to the original.

Obviously the queen cell is under attended and she has chilled and become brain damaged, at least.

Obviously the original queen and workers still have swarming on their minds, if they haven’t flown already. Judging by population I don’t think so (can’t see the queen)

What should I have done and what should I do now?

 

[alldigging]

Download this
www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf

 

[Canary Honey]

If I could find the original queen I would be happy, but I haven't been able to.
I am aware of this excellent information.

 

[Brigsy]

If you have sealed q cells, could she have gone already?

 

[Erichalfbee]

If there are no eggs ad you can't find the queen then presume she is gone.

If you wanted to split what you might have done with your queen cell is put it in a nuc with a frame of sealed brood and a frame of stores then made it up with drawn comb. You need to add nurse bees and a good way of doing that is to shake maybe three quarters of the remaining frames into a hive roof at the entrance of your nuc. Leave for ten minutes after which all the flying bees would have returned to the parent hive and you could just tip the nurse bees into the top of the nuc.

Back to the parent hive.
Reduce to one open queen cell and mark the frame it's on
Return in 6 days to make sure there are no more QCs having first made sure the one you marked is still there

Let both make new queens

 

[Poly Hive]

What kit do you have and you have learned one lesson so far which is that under population is not good.

PH

 

[enrico]

I'm with Erichalfbee. You should have shaken a few more frames to get rid of the Flyers and added them to the hive with the queen cell. That way you would have at least had a chance of keeping the queen cell going. I think I would have made more effort to find the queen. There are ways of increasing your chances. But I understand how panic sets in. You could have removed all but one queen cell and hoped for the best at capturing your swarm. It isn't the end of the world if your hive swarms once, in fact if you manage to capture the swarm your problems are solved, you just need to try and prevent casts. Even if you lose the swarm you still have bees and a new queen. You may get less honey if you happen to be in a flow of nectar but...... Hey you still have bees!
E

 

[Canary Honey]

I have no choice but to let them be until Monday, what with the weather and work commitments, but Monday looks a touch warmer and I should be able to don the costume and go back in to see who has been up to what.
A more concerted effort to find the slippery queen will be in order.

 

[chrisb]

just look for new eggs, if you find newly laid eggs she is in there somewhere !

 

[will]

just look for new eggs, if you find newly laid eggs she is in there somewhere !

Not always eggs stay eggs for 3 days

 

[snelgrove]

Not always eggs stay eggs for 3 days

newly laid eggs are vertical, they tilt until flat and hatch. if eggs are vertical then the queen is present

 

[Vortex]

If you can't find the queen then you could use the pagden method .. see other thread (Haynes Manual AS Question) in this forum. You need a spare brood box to do this.

If I'm splitting with a QC then I always make sure to not only give them a frame of stores but a couple of frames of (mostly) sealed brood.. the closer to hatching the better.

And as has been pointed out .. under populating a split is not a good idea.

 

[Canary Honey]

Well the Monday inspection that I had threatened the bees with happened.
The new hive with the queen cell has a good frame of bees and a frame of uncapped honey so will leave them for now.
The old hive doesn't look like it had swarmed from population and evidence of queen cells, in fact just a few cups present. They are getting a bit crammed as I had removed a super last week. I will leave them another few days before having another look and consider trying the Pagden method, I do have a drawn brood box ... but with a brood and two supers already packed with bees it is going to mean a lot of unhappy bees

I should say that I was an analytical chemist fro 20 years, Member of The Royal Society of Chemistry for a number of years, before becoming a professional tea maker and bacon roll slut. Third year beeking.
The one deep box with drawn foundation spare, empty frames in the garage with wax to fit. Running with one smoker and one hive tool. Waist too large, Inside leg ...

 

[alldigging]

Well the Monday inspection that I had threatened the bees with happened.
The new hive with the queen cell has a good frame of bees and a frame of uncapped honey so will leave them for now.
The old hive doesn't look like it had swarmed from population and evidence of queen cells, in fact just a few cups present. They are getting a bit crammed as I had removed a super last week. I will leave them another few days before having another look and consider trying the Pagden method, I do have a drawn brood box ... but with a brood and two supers already packed with bees it is going to mean a lot of unhappy bees

So put the super back on if they need more room?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you can't find the queen then you could use the pagden method ..

You need to find the queen to do a Pagden - if you can't then a Wally Shaw Snelgrove II is your best bet

They are getting a bit crammed as I had removed a super last week. I will leave them another few days before having another look

Why remove the super? get it back on ASAP (as in now) they need the space or they will hit the swarm button.

consider trying the Pagden method, I do have a drawn brood box

You need foundation for a Pagden (and a Wally Shaw for that matter) or there's a good chance it won't work; drawn comb (or as much as you can spare) is desireable if you are conducting a Demarree.