Swarming again?

[leonotron]

So, I'm following on from a form of demaree as swarm control and then setting that up in it's own hive with a queen cell, and also making another nuc with another queen cell. Both new queens in second hive and nuc are laying away.
Original colony was left with old queen and frames of foundation to replace the frames of brood I moved out. I had also added a second super as the first was almost full. Last week I reversed the supers so the full one was on top and the mostly empty one was on the bottom.
Last week I tore down a queen cell and again this week again they have two charged queen cells. Both are near to the top of frames.
They still seem to have plenty of space in the hive so is it a case of they just have the swarm impulse again regardless of space? Do I go down the same route again of separating the brood from the queen/flying bees?

 

[Heather]

If queen laying well, they are just swarmy b.....rs.
I would do a split to stop that swarm thinking, then when they have got it out of their system stick them back together, removing surplus queen.

 

[enrico]

Trust me, this year is hell for swarms. I use several methods and everyone has failed miserably. Worse than that everyone else's swarms are converging on my garden too. Not usually this hectic!
E

 

[leonotron]

I'll pick up some gear this saturday to split them. Have a spare brood box but no frames or foundation. Think I'll do like last time and separate the brood from the queen. I'm running out of space to keep them all in my garden!

 

[oliver90owner]

Are you certain it is swarming?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

hmmm - supersedure? Not that it's that certain an indication - but how old is the queen?

 

[leonotron]

I'm not certain it's swarming. I just know they are making queen cells and they are high up on the frames. The queen is from an emergency queen cell from late september last year. No sign that I'm aware of that she might be failing. Seems to be quite a prolific layer from my limited experience.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Late September emergency QC, how well did she mate? hard to tell with bees but they might know she is running out of steam - only a couple of QC's at a time high up on frame, I'm beginning to lean towards supercedure.

 

[leonotron]

I don't know how well she mated, how do I check something like that? They built up pretty fast this year anyway. Do I leave them to supercede or is it best to remove the queen cells to a nuc and then remove the old queen myself and replace with one in nuc. I've yet to spot her though, unclipped and unmarked.
Better still, should I try and buy in a laying queen to replace her. They are aggressive buggers at times.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't know how well she mated, how do I check something like that? They built up pretty fast this year anyway. Do I leave them to supercede or is it best to remove the queen cells to a nuc and then remove the old queen myself and replace with one in nuc. I've yet to spot her though, unclipped and unmarked.
Better still, should I try and buy in a laying queen to replace her. They are aggressive buggers at times.

That's the problem, you can't check, sometimes a decrease in laying isn't really evident until it's too late.You could either leave them to sort themselves out (and risk a swarm) if next time you find another one or two cells or, put one of the cells (are they on one frame or two?) with some brood and bees in a nuc to raise separately then sqush the queen and re-unite

 

[leonotron]

I think I'll make up a nuc next time it happens. I'll try and get it organised this Saturday. I'm heading away on June 10th for nine days so better get it sorted out before then.
In the mean time I'll get in touch with a bee breeder here and try and get a new queen with better genes.

 

[seaknight]

I had my first nucleus of bees at the end of April, installed them after being assured that they shouldn't swarm, but they swarmed yesterday.

Last week I saw the bees hanging down from the bottom bar of a deep frame, forming a bit of a cluster - I didn't disturb them; I can't help wonder if there was a queen cell there?

I'm also a bit paranoid that I accidentally killed the queen by crushing her between frames on inspection last week, but then thought that she would have left with the swarm.

They picked their time to swarm well (whilst I was away), they collected on the ground at the base of a fir tree, they have been captured and taken away for temporary rehoming by a local beekeeper until I get a second hive set up.

Do the swarm traps or nasonov hormone actually work to prevent loss of swarms, or are they designed to catch the beekeeper, not the bees?

I plan on following David Cramp's advice on using DN4, SN4 and Manley frames only, with the intention of producing cut comb honey first of all since it's easier and cheaper than uncapping, extracting, etc.

Any comments or advice would be appreciated. Many thanks.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I plan on following David Cramp's advice on using DN4, SN4 and Manley frames only, with the intention of producing cut comb honey first of all since it's easier and cheaper than uncapping, extracting, etc.

Any comments or advice would be appreciated. Many thanks.

Cramp eh.
DN4 fine, Manley's fine SN4 - I'd dispute that - SN1 with castellations or spacers every time. Hasn't your local association got an extractor you can loan (forget which one you're in) if E Carms, I bet Meirion would do the deed for you if you ask nicely!) Cut comb is nice but are you going to shift the lot?

 

[BeeJayBee]

You'd probably have been better starting your own thread rather than tagging onto this one, but never mind, let's get started with your questions.

A nuc from April this year shouldn't have swarmed within 5 weeks, unless it was still in the nuc and overcrowded.

Don't be wary of finding out what bees are hiding, if there's a lump of them on the bottom of a frame it's more likely 'just because' and because they were all close together on the floor when you pulled out the frame - but you can't tell unless you look.

Swarm traps and bait hives aren't there to stop swarming, they are to attract swarms. Lures and pheromones do work, and probably work better if the bait box is both big enough and is somewhere where the bees want to live.

I use large langstroths, so don't know much about nat frames. I use mostly Hoffmans because that's what I was originally advised to buy, but I now have a number of Manleys for honey. Only advice is to be careful handling wireless frames as they can slump when full of honey. You'll only know what works best for you if you try it.

 

[seaknight]

Thanks for the replies.
I thought I'd stick to using Hoffman's for brood and a half, with all Manleys on the honey supers. Will have to wait and see when I've put the Manley frames together...

I am willing to try a few frame types but I just want to get a system and stick to it so that it's the same in each hive, when I eventually get more.

I'm not a member of any association at the moment, will look into it this summer.

Where does everyone sell their honey?
From the back door, at a local market, show or online?

 

[seaknight]

I forgot to say that all frames apart from the 5 frame nuc were foundation, I added a super of foundation to give room for the queen to lay.
After reading Redwood's post on another thread, the super foundation could have triggered a swarm. Any thoughts on this?
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17332

You'd probably have been better starting your own thread rather than tagging onto this one, but never mind, let's get started with your questions.

A nuc from April this year shouldn't have swarmed within 5 weeks, unless it was still in the nuc and overcrowded.

Don't be wary of finding out what bees are hiding, if there's a lump of them on the bottom of a frame it's more likely 'just because' and because they were all close together on the floor when you pulled out the frame - but you can't tell unless you look.

Swarm traps and bait hives aren't there to stop swarming, they are to attract swarms. Lures and pheromones do work, and probably work better if the bait box is both big enough and is somewhere where the bees want to live.

I use large langstroths, so don't know much about nat frames. I use mostly Hoffmans because that's what I was originally advised to buy, but I now have a number of Manleys for honey. Only advice is to be careful handling wireless frames as they can slump when full of honey. You'll only know what works best for you if you try it.