Swarm control ( Not that again !! )

[Jed D]

Here I am sitting at work on the dreaded nightshift, reading lots of posts about Swarm Control !!!! and just confusing myself again.

Last year I used three methods of swarm control.. ( with various results )
1. Nucs, to split off prime Queen + 3 frames. Leaving one Q/C
2. Full AS with 11 frames of foundation.
3. Colonies on double Brood boxes were just split, new floor, roof an extra super or two and maybe a brood frame of foundation.
( give them space and work to do )

All of the above mean't, I HAD BOXES EVERYWHERE...

This coming year I was planning to put all our colonies on double brood boxes as soon as they reach 7/8 BIAS.

However , I've now read about Mr Demaree method..
I have to be honest and admit , I've only just read about this option

It seems to make sence in the fact that you are spliting the queen from her brood ( give her space ) while the workers , just carry on..

Anyway getting to my question..... at Last....

If I pop brood upstairs and move the Queen downstairs on a few drawn frames + foundation ( Q/E between ). As the brood hatches , will they just use the upper brood box as another super ? i.e Hang nectar everywhere ?
In which case , is it much drifferent to a double brood box in the first place ?

P.S. I do work for a living.... I'm watching the sugar beet go past from where I'm sitting.....

 

[dickbowyer]

You could just do a vertical artificial swarm with a Snelgrove board, leaving single frame of queen cell free brood below and old brood box above the Snelgrove board and then bleed foragers back into lower hive over next 8 or so days and then later once new queen mated. Gives good honey crop as no forager loss and new queen can be used to replace older queen, sell on as a nuc or make increase. Works for me and at expense on of only board and spare brood box and frames.

 

[Chris B]

Hi Jed,
Yes if you leave it like that. But I would rearrange frames at each inspection so most of the brood is always upstairs and the queen has plenty of laying space downstairs. In other words a Demaree is best done repetitively. If too many frames with brood on you move the oldest stuff downstairs as it will soon be emerging and free up space.
Clarifying after reading dickbowyers post - personally I think best time to do Demaree is BEFORE they start making queen cells and it will reduce the likelihood of them swarming.

 

[Jed D]

Hi Chris

Now I get it ' But if I can leave the brood downstairs long enough,i.e. nearly capped.
I only need to check one box for Q/Cells...

I found with my option of D/Brood , there could be alot of un-layed frames..
i.e brood in the middle of both boxes ' but never up to the edge.
Never a full box..


I should also add that , all our Queens are what mother nature provides.
We just allow lots of drones from our best colonies.

Hence they all pip with a Norfolk twang !!

Our best colony got up to 16 Bias last year , before she went over the Hedge....

dickbowyer That's a fourth option !!!

 

[Chris B]

"Now I get it ' But if I can leave the brood downstairs long enough,i.e. nearly capped.
I only need to check one box for Q/Cells..."

Yes but the essential component of the Demaree is to get the nurse bees away from the queen as much as possible, hence putting youngest brood upstairs. Obviously things develop between inspections so there will be nurse bees downstairs eventually, but then you adjust again at next inspection.

 

[Finman]

Yes but the essential component of the Demaree is to get the nurse bees away from the queen as much as possible, hence putting youngest brood upstairs. Obviously things develop between inspections so there will be nurse bees downstairs eventually, but then you adjust again at next inspection.

That is one preventing method when the hive has not yet swarming fever.
But if colony has allready swarm cells, it does not help any more.

If colony has swarm cells, only simple method is to separate old bees and brood frames. So made artificial separation makes bees to believe that they have swarmed.
The brood part of hive has still swarming fever and when it becomes weak, most of cases give up swarming, but part of colonies continues to after swarming. And you should take care that after dwarming does not happen.

When AS part has foudation box, it is quite sure that it does not swarm, if it starts to draw foundations.

ESSENTIAL IS THAT hive parts are united again to make the colony able to catch and handle a good yield. If colony is separated to old bees and young bees, the yield will be miserable.

Nuc system is used before the colony has swarming fever. It does not help if there are allready queen cells

When I read these stories, different tricks are mixed happily together, and I am sure that this does not help beginners.

 

[Jed D]

Mr Finman
My aim this season is to act before swarm fever kicks in.

So I will note the first drone brood, watch for Q/cups, and keep a close eye on brood space. Timing sounds like the key !!
Spring build up was very rapid last year and caught me out !!

Depending on weather , flow etc... I will add another brood box and try to keep the girls in the same hive.
We only use nationals 'but have double b/boxes for every hive, which is why I was interested in Mr Demaree method.
I have no wish to confuse anyone ' but I want to learn and try different methods myself..

Chris B
So as much laying space for Queenie as poss. And keep stacking on supers.

Last year, I really got caught out at the end of the OSR flow.
Most colonies went in to swarm mode and it all happened at once.
I guess when there is a big drop in forage, this is always gonna happen.

However the problem was , by the time colonies were re-united and big enough to produce a surplus of Honey, the Limes had finished !!!
Hence lots of OSR , very little Lime and buckets of Ivy..

This year we are planning to have three sites for Honey production. We also have a fourth site ( 3 miles from all the others sites) as back up !!

OSR seems to be a double edged sword. we can't get away from it..
All sites have OSR within a mile..
While I'm not knocking OSR Honey . I really want to aim at Lime Honey.

P.S. We're also out of Honey Ale... Got any ?

 

[Finman]

Mr Finman
My aim this season is to act before swarm fever kicks in.

So I will note the first drone brood, watch for Q/cups, and keep a close eye on brood space. Timing sounds like the key !!
Spring build up was very rapid last year and caught me out !!

.

..

Ok, but it does not go that way.

There are preventive acts, and there are swarming fever acts, AND DO NOT MIX THEM

The key is not timing but shecking the hives, do they have started to make queen cells.
Queen cell cups means nothing.
To stop good build up and split profuctive colonies too early is a big mistake.
First drone brood means nothing.

I can see that you have got enough wrong advices. Not good.

 

[Finman]

.
Preventive swarm controls

- try to buy well breeded queens which are not easy to swarm
- non swarmy bee strains exist but they are hard work to maintain by small hobby beekeeper
- take care in time that build up has enough space

- do not take virgins from swarmed hive.

- biggest hives swarm first. Weak perhaps never.

- mixing different strains makes stock swarmy

 

[BeeBeeKa]

I fing that Ian Craig clarifies the AS method, mentioned above, pretty well even for such a newbee that I am , in May part of the book( the second part of May part ): http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/My Beekeeping Year.pdf

 

[Chris B]

To stop good build up and split profuctive colonies too early is a big mistake.

Yes true if you have the time to manage the spike of all colonies attempting swarming simultaneously, but early splits here will grow strong enough to exploit the main flow and reduce workload at swarming time - a useful compromise.

 

[Finman]

Yes true if you have the time to manage the spike of all colonies attempting swarming simultaneously, but early splits here will grow strong enough to exploit the main flow and reduce workload at swarming time - a useful compromise.

It is very diffrent to handle 300 hives or 3 hives on backyard.

However, if you split a hive, it takes half summer in Britain that split is able to make some honey. 15 kg or 60 kg? A small hive cannot even store the yield into the hive and rippen nectar up.

Our professionals make split too here in short summer to prevent swarming, but they never use queen cells in that and ever never swarming cells.

 

[Jed D]

So what I'm trying to achieve, is starting to sound like the Holy Grail of Beekeeping.
To perform a Demaree , somewhere in the spring build up , before they go into swarm mode and without knocking the colony back.. while the OSR nectar is flowing and then bridge the gap ,while waiting for my over wintered Borage followed by the Limes....

In my spare time , I'm also gonna learn to juggle with my eyes closed and my hands behide my back....

Thanks for your input Gents.

 

[Finman]

Yes true if you have the time to manage the spike of all colonies attempting swarming simultaneously, but early splits here will grow strong enough to exploit the main flow and reduce workload at swarming time - a useful compromise.

When we think about whole active season 5-6 months, it needs more than nuc splitting or swarm prevention. Yor beekeeping skills are much more than couple of tricks.

All starts previous summer when you put good queens into the hives. That affects to swarming too.

.

 

[Chris B]

All starts previous summer when you put good queens into the hives. That affects to swarming too.
.

Of course. This is probably the most important thing of all.

 

[mbc]

Unless you plan to extract brood frames, the demaree system ties up an awful lot of equipment for little gain.
I find running a queen rearing program helps with swarm control, just as a good number of your production colonies are thinking of swarming, you need a load of brood and bees elsewhere, so a little bit of judicious bleeding off of strength from the production colonies keeps most of them in check while providing the necessary resources for the queen rearing side.
I call it judicious integrated swarm management, makes a good acronym

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I call it judicious integrated swarm management, makes a good acronym

 

[Jed D]

MBC
It seems I've asked a question and very quickly found myself out of my depth !!!

" Judicious bleeding off " or " bleeding off strength "

This sounds like something I've done with Nucs , i.e. Knocking them back, by swapping Bees & brood for foundation.
Only a temp fix , more of a delay thing....


We have 6 Nucs over wintering 10 yards from a field of OSR. ( over the hedge )
I'm also planning to move 3 hives to the same spot in Feb, March.

My thinking behide this is , If the OSR flow starts really early ( like last year )
I'll have the option of boosting the Hives with extra brood n Bees...

Should I call this " judicious Boost management " ?

I could just unite hives , while spliting a Nuc and banking a Queen.. ( we'll see what mother nature throws our way )

Coming back to my original problem, as the OSR flow stops !!!!
Bang, swarm mode kicks in..

Last spring, some of our colonies expanded very rapidly, adding supers didn't seem to be enough, Queenie needed space to lay.
So I gave them an extra brood box. ( placing 4/5 frames of brood in the middle of each box ) surrounded by comb and foundation.
I was pleased to see that this didn't knock them back 'but made for some nice size colonies.
And the sort of swarms, I'd be really pleased to collect !!!!!

I can extract brood frames ' but I wasn't planning too.. And a full AS works ' but uses even more kit.
Currently our Queen rearing goes as far as , Re-Queening from our good colonies and taking out the duff ones..
I was also wondering weather to give our best colonies a frame of drone foundation to fill. But now , I'm so far out of my depth , I need a submarine..

 

[Finman]

.
Rape blooming is dangerous to nucs, because nectar may fill brood space in couple of days. Brood cycle is 3 weeks. Then you may take food frames to big hives and give empty combs. But it depends what are weathers, what will happen.

 

[mbc]

Get it right and the colonies dont think about swarming again unless they decide to on the summer flow. I try and take away <50% of the adult bees and leave all or most of the brood, certainly all the young brood, as the spring flow finishes. If I've timed it right the population is just getting back to a "danger" level for swarming when t he brambles come into flower, it seems to me the brambles give a steady flow which is quite attritional to the older bees and thus once again averts swarming.
I wouldn't say you're out of your depth Jed D, sounds like you have a workable plan for osr already, and breeding from the best and culling the worst is pretty much what every breeder dose whatever their level.
I'd be wary of putting your judicious integrated swarm management into judicious boost management though, who knows what sort of queen you'd get.