Runing Double 14x12 Brood

[MuswellMetro]

I had a big strong 14x12 colony that made swarm cells on the 8th april due to congestion and I did a pagden AS

so as it is aggressive if not queen right, i moved both the AS and the parent hive to an out apairy i use for OSR

Being a long way from home, the OSR over, i have rather left it fend for its self and combined the AS and parent hive two weeks ago without a full inspection, just put the new queen (AS parent Box) on top , however due to other commitments i only did the full inspection today

The inspection showed it had 16 frames of 14x12 Brood and it is heaving with bees

Does any one else run Double 14x12 Brood, just wondering as i would like to know the problems encountered (apart from the need for a step ladder)

 

[Foxylad]

I run commercial hives that when swarming starts I have added a second BB with the use of a curry or horsley board. Once the new queen is mated I then either split the hive or recombine depending on the queens.

I am lucky I can move my hives around to what ever flow is starting. With a 22,000 acre estate to place bees where ever I like. I need to keep them light which a double BB is for a single person too heavy to move.

If I recombine, with two queens laying in the same box, the hive with two BB can become very heavy. Inspections may also be tricky there is sometimes such a thing as too many bees. To get the Double BB down to one I with balance some of the weaker hives transferring brood and also giving the larger hives more space with the empty frames from weaker colonies. This balancing helps with honey flows, pushing honey up into supers. Sometimes placing the fullest brood frames on the outer most frames of the box. Depending.

This system works for me, I like to work the BB, but also keep them to a maximum, manageable size and weight.

 

[oliver90owner]

After three weeks the hive will be 'over the hump'. The brood nest will then reduce 'cos there is only one laying queen to supply the brood and all the other queen's brood will have emerged.

Lots and lots of bees to get a surplus and if both boxes remain, they may well back-fill as brood reduces, so 'a la Finman', lots of supers required if there is a good flow until those extra bees die off.

It will also test the general rule of new queens don't swarm in their first season. Her pheromones should be good to keep the colony together, and the bees will become aware of the reducing workforce after that six or seven weeks beyond uniting. But by then you should have a good crop provided there is a good flow during that period. Enjoy.

Lucky she got mated that early in the season.

RAB

 

[MuswellMetro]

It will also test the general rule of new queens don't swarm in their first season. Her pheromones should be good to keep the colony together, and the bees will become aware of the reducing workforce after that six or seven weeks beyond uniting. But by then you should have a good crop provided there is a good flow during that period. Enjoy.

Lucky she got mated that early in the season.

RAB

thanks RAB

quite suprised to see so much brood, dont know how well she is mated but we had a warm spell 19-20c from 21st-24th april and she was laying by the 8th May, but other queens have been much longer to come onto lay this year

 

[Finman]

.

16 frames of brood is quite good.

.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

So'a an estate 100,000 times the size of mine. Blinking heck.

 

[oliver90owner]

If no honey arch and full of brood that would be about 90 000 bees emerging over the next three weeks!

More realistically about 60 - 70 000, perhaps. Still a lot of bees.

Back to around 30 000 or less going forwards after the other queen's brood has all emerged and taking the time of season into account, etc, etc, etc.

Still nowhere near the 50 000 eggs laid by a single queen over a 12 day period as claimed/reported on here by one poster.

 

[beeno]

A tale of two beehives which elicits very different response - shame on you Oliver!

 

[oliver90owner]

A tale of two beehives

What are you on about!

Yes two different hives but both (apparently) with an awful lot of brood. The hive in this thread a true example, the other - pure fantasy.

Oh, it was you claiming 50,000 eggs laid over a twelve day period and then she simply 'stopped laying and had a rest'. Even 70 000 in this case would be good, laid by two queens over a brood cycle of three weeks. Yes, a reasonable lay-rate of a bit over 1 500/day for each queen which may not be excessive for a young queen in the parent colony and a swarmed colony with an urge to consolidate. But 50 000 over twelve days is over 4 000 a day.

Always useful to compare the sublime with the rediculous. It demonstrates to the new beeks how wide the claims on the forum can be at the two extremes, of reality or imaginary.

 

[Ely]

Yeh, like people claim to keep bees in a beehaus! Ha! As if

 

[itma]

After three weeks the hive will be 'over the hump'. The brood nest will then reduce 'cos there is only one laying queen to supply the brood and all the other queen's brood will have emerged.

Lots and lots of bees to get a surplus and if both boxes remain, they may well back-fill as brood reduces, so 'a la Finman', lots of supers required if there is a good flow until those extra bees die off.
…

Yes, there are currently two queensworth of brood - and that will reduce over the next 3 weeks as brood emerges about twice as fast as it is being laid.

The thing to avoid is the upper brood box getting filled with honey.

That would be ruddy heavy to lift off, let alone away, and (for some) an extraction problem.
So, its worth trying to avoid getting into that situation!
Accordingly, yes, provide LOTS of supers to accommodate all those bees, but also, during the next 3 weeks, I would be actively rearranging the brood to try and avoid honey storage in 14x12 frames! I'd be trying to move as much brood as possible into the top box, and any honey-heavy brood frames into the bottom box - uncapping some sealed stuff. I'd be presenting the bees with the situation of having stores under the brood, but with space available to store it above the brood (and QX), and expecting them to respond appropriately.

 

[oliver90owner]

Deed was done two weeks ago? So emergence rate will drop like atone in the next week, not three!

I might as well post the correcton as any other (who has likely not noticed it yet?).

 

[itma]

And I should have also stressed the importance of watching out for swarm cells … there is the potential for a truly amazing prime swarm!

 

[oliver90owner]

Nah, queens don't swarm in their first season!

Famous last words with a colony like that. Mind you it holds for most new beeks - well, them what start with a nuc.

I would hope/expect MM has selected his strains such that the risk is lessened, at least.

 

[Finman]

And I should have also stressed the importance of watching out for swarm cells … there is the potential for a truly amazing prime swarm!

Make an AS. It is catched then.

 

[Finman]

Yes, there are currently two queensworth of brood - and that will reduce over the next 3 weeks as brood emerges about twice as fast as it is being laid.

The thing to avoid is the upper brood box getting filled with honey.

That would be ruddy heavy to lift off, let alone away, and (for some) an extraction problem.
So, its worth trying to avoid getting into that situation!
Accordingly, yes, provide LOTS of supers to accommodate all those bees, but also, during the next 3 weeks, I would be actively rearranging the brood to try and avoid honey storage in 14x12 frames! I'd be trying to move as much brood as possible into the top box, and any honey-heavy brood frames into the bottom box - uncapping some sealed stuff. I'd be presenting the bees with the situation of having stores under the brood, but with space available to store it above the brood (and QX), and expecting them to respond appropriately.

Very odd story.... To avoid honey to storage...

I think that you are disturbing the bees so that they cannot fully concentrate on their work.

Alarm! He is coming!

 

[meidel]

Trying this out this year - new queens in both bottom and top boxes, ie from virgins emerged roughly about the same time 18thish of May and on Friday 13th June there was nice capped worker brood, roughly 4 frames of brood in all stages in each of the boxes. Doing it because we're squeezed for space in the apiary - supposed to only have 3 hive spaces each. Last night I closed the top entrance and the top box foragers are still trying to puzzle their way back in.

 

[beeno]

A tale of two beehives

What are you on about!

Yes two different hives but both (apparently) with an awful lot of brood. The hive in this thread a true example, the other - pure fantasy.

Oh, it was you claiming 50,000 eggs laid over a twelve day period and then she simply 'stopped laying and had a rest'. Even 70 000 in this case would be good, laid by two queens over a brood cycle of three weeks. Yes, a reasonable lay-rate of a bit over 1 500/day for each queen which may not be excessive for a young queen in the parent colony and a swarmed colony with an urge to consolidate. But 50 000 over twelve days is over 4 000 a day.

Always useful to compare the sublime with the rediculous. It demonstrates to the new beeks how wide the claims on the forum can be at the two extremes, of reality or imaginary.

You made it pure fantasy Oliver, the 50,000 was your estimate not mine. It just show how you work, old pal MM and newbie gets different treatment from you. Stick to beekeeping not getting your rocks off on newbies! Beekeeping is what this forum is all about!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Nah, queens don't swarm in their first season!

I got the irony, but just to underline it: nuc picked up on 26 April: put a stopped-down BB over on 3 May; they drew it, layed it up and swarmed on 19 May (my fault). Split the colony in 2 on 1 swarm cell each and the stopped-down BB got the flying bees. Now full of brood and threatening to swarm (play cups, brace comb and the drone trap full of drone brood). Could have swarmed (could still swarm) within just over a month.

 

[oliver90owner]

the 50,000 was your estimate not mine.-

I can only work on what you wrote apparently she had 11/12 frames laid up in a period of just 12 days. National hive, so with deep frames that is c.50 000 cells. If it was less than 11 frames, you were clearly not telling the truth. Exaggerating for effect? Doesn't cut any ice with me. Even unlikely if using shallows as brood!

You also claimed she then just stopped laying for a few days, by virtue of there being nowhere to lay. Amazing.

Just like your post which told a new beek that the queen stops laying three weeks before swarming. Your words, almost verbatim. One wonders how a colony can swarm if she stopped laying as there would be no eggs and virtually all brood would have emerged by swarming time. Not very clever to be telling new beeks things like that.

Also I remember you spouting that there will be capped brood in less than three weeks after swarming. A really impossible claim, probably even for a clipped queen colony not going until queen cells were about to emerge. Want me to go on? I have the list saved on the hard drive. Time lines will easily sort out those that do not tell the truth.