Queen introduction issues

[sean-a]

I made a split last Saturday to introduce a new queen to.
Two frames of emerging brood and a frame of nectar, with some fondant in the feeder of the nuc.
I went in three days later and took down a handful of queen cells (impatient I know! I should have left them longer)
A couple of days later more queen cells which I took down.
A couple more days, more queen cups and one cell which I took down again.

I went into the nuc today to release the tab and yet more queen cells with eggs in.

No eggs or any uncapped brood anywhere else but 3 queen cups with eggs and one with a grub in that I must have missed last time.
No queen seen.

I have left the tab on the queen cage, she is still roaming around the cage, but her attendants have all died.
Bees all over the cage and quite clingly, not overly aggresive though.

Any ideas?

 

[enrico]

This is a total guess but I would suggest the bees are aware they have no eggs or brood and are desperately trying to replace the queen they reckon is no good! In theory you should have no eggs or young larvae left so you should be ok. A push in cage would be good to get her actually laying. I am a bit confused where the eggs are coming from though!

 

[drex]

Inadvertently took a queen into the split on one of the frames? As Enrico says, in theory if queen less there should be no larvae to make queen cells from

 

[Erichalfbee]

Inadvertently took a queen into the split on one of the frames? As Enrico says, in theory if queen less there should be no larvae to make queen cells from

If there is a queen in the split why are they making queen cells?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

never liked that kind of nuc making. I've always waited for the queen to arrive then make up a nuc and put the queen in her cage straight in

 

[Erichalfbee]

never liked that kind of nuc making. I've always waited for the queen to arrive then make up a nuc and put the queen in her cage straight in

Yes. That’s the way I do it. None of this hopelessly queenless stuff. Using capped brood from the top of a Demaree is a good way to avoid queen cells too.

 

[GuyNir]

The weird thing is he sees eggs only in Q cells, nowhere else. So, say he has a Q in there, how would there be eggs only in Q cells? Strange…

 

[sean-a]

never liked that kind of nuc making. I've always waited for the queen to arrive then make up a nuc and put the queen in her cage straight in

I waited for the queens to arrive and made up the splits the same day. Queen straight into the split (in her cage)
Two others have gone fine, I am flumoxed by where the eggs are coming from.
If there is a queen in the hive, why not other eggs in the frames.
If not where has the egg come from.

 

[sean-a]

Might try to shake the whole nuc through a queen excluder to see if there is a queen, failing that I think that another frame of emerging brood and a push in cage......or.....just pop the tab and see what happens

 

[Antipodes]

Might try to shake the whole nuc through a queen excluder to see if there is a queen, failing that I think that another frame of emerging brood and a push in cage......or.....just pop the tab and see what happens

One other way to make up a nuc if you have time (*next time), is to shake all the bees off the selected frames down into the hive. Put a queen excluder on and then the removed brood frames in another box above the excluder. Leave them on for a while so the nurse bees etc. go up and onto them and then remove them for the nuc. No queen on them then.

It can be hard going with a big hive to find the queen through sieving from the top. Another method that sometimes works is to shake them all out in front of the hive with an excluder firstly placed below the lowest box - but above the floor. After leaving them for some time to go back in, the queen is usually reasonably easily found under the excluder (with drones etc.).

Sometimes colonies have two queens.

 

[Erichalfbee]

***

 

[BigAshW]

never liked that kind of nuc making. I've always waited for the queen to arrive then make up a nuc and put the queen in her cage straight in

Do you do the same for virgins?

 

[elainemary]

I waited for the queens to arrive and made up the splits the same day. Queen straight into the split (in her cage)
Two others have gone fine, I am flumoxed by where the eggs are coming from.
If there is a queen in the hive, why not other eggs in the frames.
If not where has the egg come from.

I’ve heard beekeepers say that bees can hold back eggs which sounds bizarre and not possible biologically.
However I may have observed it recently. I made a hive queenless on Friday lunchtime. Added a frame of eggs from another colony (would have ideally liked v young larva). I looked yesterday afternoon just over 3 days later, to remove the first batch of emergency cells. As you’d expect the queenless colony made emergency cells (half a dozen). They had also ‘eaten’ all the eggs (or they had ‘disappeared’) except for 2 eggs. Why had these not started to become larva? If they had been laid on Friday morning surely they should have started to change to a larva by late Monday afternoon (5pm ish)? Maybe not quite enough time, though absolutely dead straight in shape. I’ve taken the emergency cells down and intrigued to find out what happens to the 2 eggs,now they are getting hopelessly queenless. I will look again later this week. Perhaps what I’ve heard and dismissed in the past that bees can hold back eggs is true?
Be interested to hear if others have observed this.

 

[Bazzer]

I waited for the queens to arrive and made up the splits the same day. Queen straight into the split (in her cage)
Two others have gone fine, I am flumoxed by where the eggs are coming from.
If there is a queen in the hive, why not other eggs in the frames.
If not where has the egg come from.

Are they taking eggs from the caged queen and using them to charge QC?

 

[sean-a]

This is intensely frustrating!
Went and had another look, two more queen cups and one with an egg in.
I had a look at the other comb and there was possibly a single egg in one of the cells, but most are filling with nectar now.
No larvae at all.
Bees swarming over the queen cage, I daren't let her out

I shook all the bees out on the grass as I worked through, frame by frame. No sign of a queen!

I have a Nuc next to it with a rotating disc with a queen excluder on, I think that I will go back and swap that onto this nuc and shake the buggers out again and see whether that throws up a queen.

 

[Swarm]

Do you do the same for virgins?

Different thing with virgins. Run virgins into mating nucs, a frame of sealed brood with no eggs on the frame, a frame with stores and a comb and a shake of nurse bees. I set these aside to allow any flying bees to leave before running her onto a comb, misting the bees with a water spray can help cause a bit of distraction but the last few were happily accepted as if they were old friends.

 

[Hachi]

Clearly something is amiss whether by accident or you, either way its time to cut your losses.

You have 7 hives on your profile, make up a new nuc correctly and follow the advice already provided and save your Q in the cage.

Personally, I'd get her out of the coffin she's in and put her into a push in cage and get her laying asap.

 

[sean-a]

Yes, my thoughts exactly. Push in cage is the way to go.
I am going to cut my losses.
I have put the queen excluder on and shook the whole box out, but just seemed to sift out drones!
I plan to use the nuc box again, but will just shake all the bees out and let them join the other hives and start again.
Can't set her up for a few days so will have a final check before.

The seven hives was before I put my hand up for swarm collection..and splits!
Embarrased to say how many now

 

[rook66]

I’ve heard beekeepers say that bees can hold back eggs which sounds bizarre and not possible biologically.
However I may have observed it recently. I made a hive queenless on Friday lunchtime. Added a frame of eggs from another colony (would have ideally liked v young larva). I looked yesterday afternoon just over 3 days later, to remove the first batch of emergency cells. As you’d expect the queenless colony made emergency cells (half a dozen). They had also ‘eaten’ all the eggs (or they had ‘disappeared’) except for 2 eggs. Why had these not started to become larva? If they had been laid on Friday morning surely they should have started to change to a larva by late Monday afternoon (5pm ish)? Maybe not quite enough time, though absolutely dead straight in shape. I’ve taken the emergency cells down and intrigued to find out what happens to the 2 eggs,now they are getting hopelessly queenless. I will look again later this week. Perhaps what I’ve heard and dismissed in the past that bees can hold back eggs is true?
Be interested to hear if others have observed this.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. Push in cage is the way to go.
I am going to cut my losses.
I have put the queen excluder on and shook the whole box out, but just seemed to sift out drones!
I plan to use the nuc box again, but will just shake all the bees out and let them join the other hives and start again.
Can't set her up for a few days so will have a final check before.

The seven hives was before I put my hand up for swarm collection..and splits!
Embarrased to say how many now

I remember, many moons ago, someone sending eggs through the post .queens eggs, that is

 

[sean-a]

Yet more eggs, but looks like a laying worker as multiple eggs in the cell.
Decided to put a couple of frames of capped brood above a QX with the caged queen and let them draw up nurse bees.
`it will help knock back the nuc too.