Poly vs wood?

[DulwichGnome]

Nonsense. Many of us are using wooden hives which predate and have far outlasted many of the first poly hives already.
Wood grows on trees, is a more robust material and is far more easily mended or recycled than polystyrene.
Whoever says polystyrene is 100% recyclable should take into account that at the present time its roughly 100% not recycled.

'Polystyrene is 100% recyclable with hundreds of tonnes being recycled every month in the UK. EPS is 98% air and its manufacture therefore makes it highly efficient use of natural resources.'

http://www.kbpackagingandinsulation.co.uk/www.kbpackagingandinsulation.co.uk/info.php?p=5

 

[RoofTops]

If we take away the posts preceding this from people who have:

Plastic cased TVs, cars with plastic dashboards, users of plastic flower pots, plastic plant labels, tie their tomatoes up with plastic string, people who wear man-made fibres etc., etc,. I wonder how many posts would be left?

What's so special about keeping bees that it has to be super green?

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for sustainability but there is a big difference in my view from a plastic hive which will last 20 to 30 years from some of the other less justified uses of plastic.

 

[Red Bee]

Good answer

 

[Into the lions den]

Quite some years ago now it was me who specified the detail of the ones currently being retailed by CWJ, which were a joint effort by two Danish concerns and myself. From the start the focus I insisted on was compatibility. Compatibility with wooden components that is. Same external dimensions, but full insulation value, hence the one frame less situation. It works just fine although the design does have some shortcomings due to it being the first one and there being no certainty the very conservative UK market would adopt it, and thus we were not going to throw unlimited money at it.

Compatibility is what gives you free choice. Some of the non compatibility issues are accidental. The maker arrived at their own solution of how best to do a poly National. Some compatibility issues are deliberate. Once they get you onto THEIR pattern you cannot change to that of another maker without having issues, well pointed to by itma below.[/COLOR]

For poly Nationals, the principal problem for me is that there isn't a standard, and you are closely binding yourself to a single supplier.

Thats pretty well the case for all hive types actually. Its a lot simpler in a hive with short lugged frames though, and the UK penchant for long lugged ones makes things a bit more awkward. The market for Langstroth for example is now pretty mature and, apart from fringe trade, has polarised down to a couple of basic variants, the plain jointed or the lipped versions. Both have their adherants, although I understand that the plain outsells the lipped in most markets quite comfortably.

In time a standard will emerge by itself, a pattern becoming the dominant one and the others will fade away, and any maker not using the standard favoured version will find themselves with a minority market.

And that's before we get to aesthetics, environmentalism, toughness, need for strapping, etc.

A strapping point has been included on the migratory version floor we had made. Remachining his to accomodate whole floor mesh would, however, be a big issue. The static version of the floor (borrowed mould for a Swedish national actually) is very easy to modify, and could be made that way at a relatively modest cost

To me compatibility had to be the key, and the single main compromise then was the one frame less issue. Everything else then fits. Your wooden supers, your excluders, boards, hive top feeders etc etc, even the wooden floors.

Not convinced that SHB, raised earlier in the post, will ever be a serious issue in the UK. Many reasons for that but mostly climate and soil types. We do not have, even in SE England far less up here in Scotland, the soil temp profile needed for this pest to *prosper*. (As opposed to merely exist, which is its situation in the US other than extreme southern states) It also travels on South African fruit, veg, and bundled herbs, and this appears to have been its normal vector of spread to new landmasses. No prizes for guessing who, for the last century and more, has had by far the lions share of South African fruit and veg exports to non African clients? If it went anywhere it went here. What odds it has not been here before, perhaps several times?

Edit.....sorry....this post has formatted itself strangely and it may be seen that stuff i wrote is a quote from itma...............the first section of my writings was intended to be in colour, but is not and I cannot get that to rectify.

 

[Poly Hive]

My reason for using and being a bit of a prophet for poly is very simple.

Over the years my experience has been that the bees prefer poly in that they thrive better.

Reading and taking on board that some have strongly held beliefs which are not new actually as the posters have mainly made their positions pretty clear over time, I wonder how the thread might have read if we were discussing moving from skeps to timber?

At that time there were pretty entrenched views.

PH

 

[mbc]

I prefer my skeps made of wicker with a coulm of clay and cow **** to weather proof them, every other design is heresy !

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I prefer my skeps made of wicker with a coulm of clay and cow **** to weather proof them, every other design is heresy !

But what breed of cow is best?


Or is any bullshit acceptable?


D

 

[Moggs]

Having just ventured into poly beekeeping I have immediately benefited from the better thermal insulation over timber (recent split and AS into poly in this wretched cold weather). I won't be trading in any of my cedar hives as I see great benefits in durability and aesthetic appeal. I will almost certainly be buying more poly kit for its sheer practicality (especially when it comes to the need to nurture colonies) and of course, cost.

In short, I can see no reason to standardise on either one or t'other as both wood and poly will perform exactly as intended.

 

[tonybloke]

But what breed of cow is best?

Or is any bullshit acceptable?

D

most breeds of cow are suitable, but those on 'spring grass' provide the right sort of cow-sh*t for sealing skeps. A field with young heifers and bullocks is usually safe to enter, but be wary of fields with mothers and calves (mothers can get defensive)

if you want to try and collect bullshit, feel free to enter any field with bulls in (at your own risk)

 

[madasafish]

. A field with young heifers and bullocks is usually safe to enter, but be wary of fields with mothers and calves (mothers can get defensive)

Elephants dung is better: female elephants after calving give the best dung.. But "defensive" is a mild description.. "Likely to charge and squash you" is better.

The long fibres ensure a far better bond.

Been chased by an elephant - mother with calf.. NOT recommended..

Not many elephants in Stoke on Trent due to my planting bluebells from ancient woods blessed by Druid priests..

 

[Poly Hive]

One of the wee awkward matters that makes me smile is that after 28 years in the oil business how many condemn as being not green this and that to suit their own thoughts not giving a thought to the oil that they consume in so many ways.

Glass houses anyone?

Bike? Lube and construction.

Car... fuel and lube and construction.

Walking... soles.

The list is endless.

However that does not make it right to waste resources.

PH

 

[user 6228]

One of the wee awkward matters that makes me smile is that after 28 years in the oil business how many condemn as being not green this and that to suit their own thoughts not giving a thought to the oil that they consume in so many ways.

Glass houses anyone?

Bike? Lube and construction.

Car... fuel and lube and construction.

Walking... soles.

The list is endless.

However that does not make it right to waste resources.

PH

Agreed, I might add one should always to go back to the proven facts ... but then facts can be inconvienient to one's arguments e.g. Brent Spar.

 

[Poly Hive]

I won't pretend to defend the accidents, BS was the least of it. Try Piper Alpha?

Not to mention a lovely man called Keith Ireland that no one has heard of but he died four years ago on Ninian Central because no one opened the bleed off valve and he was so badly injured by high pressure mud he died 9 days later.

I left the industry partly because of his death so please don't try that line of argument.

However when the overall good is vastly more than the negatives where then?

I am just gently highlighting that some are a wee bit blind at times.

PH

 

[pigletwillie]

I like the feel and aesthetics of wood, I like the fact that I can go into my workshop and emerge some hours later with a nuc box or a new roof for my hives. With poly I will not have that added extra.

However, the earth is not flat and things progress and if over wintering colonies are performing better in poly brood boxes then that is worth taking a note of. We all would like colonies rampaging away after the winter which makes me think along the lines of bastardised hives which are perhaps part traditional but with the added benefits of a poly brood box. Perhaps we could have poly filled extruded plastic hives which would in theory last a lifetme or two, be easy to clean, come in a variety of colours and usurp any of the green issues quite rightly being brought up in this thread.

I am half tempted to make an insulated "outer" for over wintering my nationals made out of off cuts of kingspan type insulation material. That way I can ambrace the improvements of poly but remain a natural product ludite

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I like the feel and aesthetics of wood,

I am half tempted to make an insulated "outer" for over wintering my nationals made out of off cuts of kingspan type insulation material. That way I can ambrace the improvements of poly but remain a natural product ludite

I'm new to this lark - sorry, bees - so I'm able to ask the stupid questions.

Does anyone make the hive equivalent of a water immersion heater cover - which might also deter woodpeckers and could include some sort of temperature gauge? Remove in spring.

Only asking. Please give me 2 minutes to get my tin hat or dunce's cap.

Dusty.

 

[Black Comb]

Last year in BBKA news such a "thing" was outlined.
Around autumn time.
Sorry I can't remember more detail.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I did thermal imaging of a friends wooden hives with a Kingspan surround, surpirsingly good. All down to cost....

 

[oliver90owner]

I am half tempted to make an insulated "outer" for over wintering my nationals made out of off cuts of kingspan type insulation material.

And what is kingspan made of, if it is not oil based?

How long a life will the kingspan have? All well trying to be a 'natural product luddite', but the simple way is just to go poly.

Several of my hives have been insulated all the year round, at the rail ends, with a 25 mm polystyrene fitted insert. Some nucs were insulated all round and the Dartingtons definitely benefit with sheets of insulation strapping to the side (they are superb for over-wintering anyway). Other hives were insulated internally this last winter with a couple of dummy frames, too.

I still like timber but the simpler way is certainly a poly brood - and it is that much lighter to lug around.

Any future aquisitions will be just the poly broods as all the rest can be hand-made, although there may be some poly supers for the earliest colonies on the OSR.

Having said that 6mm ply walls for a six framer has been enough for the bees to survive some seriously harsh conditions (for the UK, in recent years) for two winters, now. Just a matter of how well/early they can get going in the spring, is what I think is important to me.

RAB

 

[Hivemaker.]

Just a matter of how well/early they can get going in the spring, is what I think is important to me.

And me. Many of the bees in five frame 9mm ply nucs(well and truly packed out with bees) were transferred into full size nationals over a month ago and now and have their first or some even second super on,plus some on double brood now...much the same every spring really.
Could be a good year for honey.

 

[oliver90owner]

Could be a good year for honey.

Could be - down your neck of the woods.

Might be a disasterous year for some - expecially if we get more of the same as recently!

An awful lot already have a negative crop (ie they are feeding sugar) - which may conveniently be left off the crop size at the end of the year...

I transferred six frames to a full hive and they are still not ready for any more space after a month. But the poly in my garden has three supers, so may store some honey - if the weather ever changes for the better.

Regards, RAB