Pollen Patties

[Into the lions den]

fantastic stuff

Yes it is fantastic stuff, it is a well circulated document I have seen before. However, it is of relevance ONLY to Australia where they have specific nutritional issues that just never happen here. The condition of nutrient deficiency they are addressing is called locally 'the muck', and a diet to combat it and bring on full brood rearing does not actually apply in places where the condition does not happen. The recipes though, still hold good.

Feeding pollen substitute patties can do no harm, but in most UK situations the good they do will be marginal. Other than possibly after prolonged severe spring weather, and even then it will only be an issue in 'cereal desert' locations, pollen deficiencies are rare. The bees usually have plenty of it, and once the willows are on the go they can carry home large quantities. I know Finman is of the opposite belief, but in this country, even in the 'June gap' there is still widely varied pollen in abundance, its just the nectar plants that are absent. Light syrup at that time gives the only boost they need.

 

[Finman]

. I know Finman is of the opposite belief, but in this country,
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OH BOY!!!!

Every one should have brains so much that if knowledge is from somewhere, you try to fit to your circumtancies.

Only what you are able to do is feed feed and feed sugar the whole winter to you hives.

Yes sure, And of course you need those match sticks to make the hive cold that bees consume all that sugar mountain before next summer.

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[Finman]

Yes it is fantastic stuff, it is a well circulated document I have seen before. However, it is of relevance ONLY to Australia where they have specific nutritional issues .

That knowledge is suitable in Finland too. I see no difference between Austaralian and Finnish knowledge about nutrition of bees.

Why it is not suitable in UK, I cannot understand that.

We have not Eucalyptus trees or Torula yeast either. We have only willow pollen in Spring and we have baker yeast.

But all the Austaralian story is usefull to those who do not understand only but feed feed sugar.

What the fault is not the skills of teacher . but the need of knowledge what a man is eager to adapt.

If some one does not need knowledge, it is same even if angels tell it to him.

I wonder how many reports you have in UK about "Nutrition of Honeybee". In Finland we have none.

We have not even the word "nutrion" in our beekeeping books.

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[mbc]

If you read American comparisons of various pollen supplements/substitutes they often refer to which gives best "bang for your buck".
In my area I would totally agree with ITLD that the bees seldom suffer a pollen deficiency, which makes the "bang for your buck" of feeding pollen supplements or substitutes very poor indeed. A little carbohydrate in the form of sugar is a lot cheaper, more convenient and beneficial to the bees in most situations in our land.

 

[Into the lions den]

OH BOY!!!!

Every one should have brains so much that if knowledge is from somewhere, you try to fit to your circumtancies.

Only what you are able to do is feed feed and feed sugar the whole winter to you hives.

Yes sure, And of course you need those match sticks to make the hive cold that bees consume all that sugar mountain before next summer.

.

Finman, you actually have no idea what I do to my bees, which incidentally ( as scale seems to matter to you despite there being some plainly expert beekeepers on here of modest scale) is a unit almost the same size as Paradise Honey.

We do NOT feed in winter, that has been done in autumn.

We do not EVER top ventilate. (solid and mesh floors alike)

We almost never have a pollen dearth. We KNOW that because we investigate to find out, not simply following a fashion or edict from some beekeeping 'big dog'. ( I have the pollen patties in stock just in case.)

The sugar mountain you refer to is 14Kg (invert syrup, so approx 10Kg dry weight) in autumn. In Scotland its enough, and even then you can get some perfect comb drawn whilst feeding it. Our bees come home from the heather with large amounts of pollen entombed in their stores. Its enough to see them through to willow time, as they get more in all the time, and there are very few days when the bees can fly that they can find no pollen. You only see just how much they have stored away when you extract a broodnest comb.

We have a climate that is mild and maritime, with very variable weather patterns, not continental and relatively predictable like Finland. We have had ONE snowy morning all winter so far this year.

Many things between our countries are transferrable, some things are not. I would not dream of having the temerity to tell YOU how to do it in your climate, as I just do not have the expeience of your conditions. I am always interested in what you have to say, but any information about husbandry that is not locally based (and proven!) needs to be cherry picked, and not followed to the letter.

 

[Into the lions den]

Try this then.

Aberdeenshire, North east Scotland, early June 2011.

Colonies very light. No nectar coming in (lack of suitable flora). Broom flowering and bees working it like mad. Broodnests so full of orange pollen combs sometimes needed to be moved out. In the actual pollen bars there are no empty cells, all full of pollen apart from the small honey stores in the upper corners. Egg laying severely curtailed and colony expansion completely halted.

We need patties as well as syrup?

Same situation to variable extents in our entire range.

Even in autumn there were still significant amounts of broom pollen in the outer broodnest frames, so much that my eastern european staff recommend me to start taking them to sell bee bread. When we melt our old combs down the bottom three inches or so of the debris left in the melter is old pollen. Pollen is almost never in short supply. Even in winter, on very nice days, you see the bees bring pollen. From where I sometimes do not know, but gorse areas, a close relative of broom, have some flowers on them every day of the year.

 

[oliver90owner]

Feeding pollen substitute patties can do no harm, but in most UK situations the good they do will be marginal.

A big THANK YOU! Well said.

At last someone else telling findles that this is the UK and protein suplements are at the very least, not always needed. Perhaps if a few more would actually stand up and be counted we could out-number Finman with all his finnish(ed) ideas for the UK. One day he will realise that the beekeeping practices are somewhat different in the two countries.

Of course, ITLD will not have as much experience as Finman, or not as many colonies, or doesn't work his bees as efficiently, or some such other lame excuse that might be thought up, but the facts remain (like oxalic acid treatments -ha ha) most of the time the bees don't need it - they have enough stored pollen, or are able to forage more than sufficiently.

Only if the weather turns poor and the beek wants to accelerate spring brooding might pollen or polen substitutes be needed. Know your area, weather, bees and your plans!

OH, and btw, if they need lots of protein feeding, they likely need lots of water for brooding too. Oh, and carbohydrate, should honey stores be running low. But check first to ascertain whether you are doing something beneficial or if you will simply be wasting time, effort and resources.

RAB

 

[Finman]

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What ever. I enjoy myself that with patty feeding and electrict heating I get 3 fold speed in Spring build up.
When I do this in April, weathers are so cold that bee cannot fly in flowers even if there would be pollen outside.

Guys here insist that bees get pollen from Grey Alder. I have followed blooming tens of years and result is thaty bees can forage in alder only day or two. Brood cycle is 21 days. What means those two days.

Our willlows bloom normally so that every two week bees can forage pollen and every two weeks it is raining. During 5 last years there were 2 years that bees cannot go onto willows.
Guy wrote on forum that they have no brood any more. My hives continued brooding with 50% capacity.

When I feed 500-700 g patty in a week, they consume all, bot willow pollen and patties.
Howe ever 99% guys here say that bees run as good as without patty.

What I mean; I do not give much value to guys which do not know what they are talking.

When I start pollen feeding, I cannot know what weather is 6 weeks ahead.

You cannot win, if you do not play.


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[Winker]

I know too that sun is shiniing on your isle and bees can forage every day.

But I ask, why you feed light syrup if they get nectar every two day from nature.
What is that idea?

Do you have rainy weeks?

Last summer our dandelions bloomed again, but bees had only one foraging day during two weeks.

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Its coming to the end of winter and they are telling us we are in a drought already. River/reservoir levels have not been so low since 1978 so they tell us.

 

[Finman]

Its coming to the end of winter and they are telling us we are in a drought already. River/reservoir levels have not been so low since 1978 so they tell us.

Take care that Sahara does not spread to you.
In last December we got 3 fold rain fall compared to normal.

 

[Winker]

Current drought situation

Last updated: 2 March 2012

This week the remainder of East Anglia has officially moved into drought. The south east of England and East Anglia are both now in drought. Parts of central England, south west England and the south east of Yorkshire continue to be affected by dry weather.

It’s anticipated that the risk of drought in the spring and summer in these areas is high.


Stright from our goverment site see link below


http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/drought/31749.aspx

 

[Into the lions den]

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Howe ever 99% guys here say that bees run as good as without patty.

And they are correct, under most circumstances. You are in Finland, we are in the UK, and of that I am one of the most northerly.

Even here for most of the last week the bees have been foraging freely. Have taken my old father (he is 92) out for a run round some apiaries this morning. The bees are active, hauling home abundant pollen (and I MEAN abundant) and spring brood expansion is starting, and in the south unit its well underway. This is NORMAL here. We get plenty spring pollen and in March the bees are generally very active, the clusters open, and progress being made. We have the North Atlantic Drift (aka the Gulf Stream) washing our shores, you have the Baltic. In colloquial English the word 'baltic' means very cold.

You flip relatively quickly from winter to summer there, and then you have it hotter and drier than us. We can have weather in almost any month of the year that would seem to be from a different season. Especially in our northern islands the joke saying is 'four seasons in a day'.

I do not know how to handle your weather conditions. Please give the experienced among us credit for knowing how to handle ours.

What I mean; I do not give much value to guys which do not know what they are talking.

Meaning who? Sure there are newbies on here who need to learn a lot, and for the most part are eager to listen, there are also those who 'know it al'l yet clearly do not and are prepared to lecture the rest of us on where we are wrong based on the sparsest of experienced. There are those I simply will not get into things with as it is a futile practice. But here are also a large number of good people on here with a lot of valuable guidance to give and I think, given that they operate in the UK climate, you should accept that maybe (I know you disagree for the most part), just maybe, they know the subject of which they speak. Despite not agreeing, there are things to learn from your experience, and in my experience EVERY beekeeper of more than a handful of hive seasons knows something I dont, and that thing might be of value to me. However,the information flow is not one way, or certainly should not be. If you think we are all idiots, fine, the sun will rise tomorrow and the bees will go out to work. I will be working for the most part without pollen patties, and for sure no electric heating. Life goes on.

The level of heat and light generated is way out of proportion to the importance of the issue. They are mostly hobby beekeepers. They do it for the pleasure, and to them that is the most important harvest. Leave them alone to get on with it and to make the mistakes and to be mislead if thats what they choose to do. Its their life and their bees.

When I start pollen feeding, I cannot know what weather is 6 weeks ahead.

I accept that. you could be neck deep in snow for a long period and the bees unable to get out. Its just NOT like that in the UK, except in very localised and even then rare circumstances. People are more than capable of making a judgement call on this.

You cannot win, if you do not play.

I look at it rather differently. If I cannot win I do not play. I don't gamble, I do not play the lottery. I also do not spend large sums on feeding nearly 3000 colonies with pollen patties if there is no need, but have nearly 2 tonnes of the things in storeage so I can respond immediately if the need arises.


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Just one final thing about the heating. I do not want my bees to active, other than to a very basic extent, in the winter, they burn out too early if they are. Have read of experiments with this in North America, and whilst some situations favoured it others did not. Some apiaries suffered terribly from dysentry with the internal heating and savage cold outside. When our winter temps actually average about +2 here in the coldest months (we get cold snaps) and yours are vastly lower, the fact you do things very differently should be understood, in fact it would be a major surprise if we did the same.

 

[Finman]

douple

 

[Finman]

Just one final thing about the heating. .... Have read of experiments with this in North America, and whilst some situations favoured it others did not. Some apiaries suffered terribly from dysentry ]

I have done 8 years heating and I have only good to say about that.

I do not know what you have read.

North America is the last place where I need to look for wintering knowledge.

 

[susbees]

Current drought situation

Last updated: 2 March 2012

This week the remainder of East Anglia has officially moved into drought. The south east of England and East Anglia are both now in drought. Parts of central England, south west England and the south east of Yorkshire continue to be affected by dry weather.

It’s anticipated that the risk of drought in the spring and summer in these areas is high.


http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/drought/31749.aspx

Um, those of us left of Birmingham have been in drought for around a year: note how it's an England-only. And I should know - we're only spring fed for the whole farm. Making syrup for autumn feed was a nightmare (no running water for ten weeks) and last April no better. Expecting more of the same and what grass?

 

[Finman]

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I heard just news that in Helsinki we have got water during last 3 months so much that it is a record in 150 years.

 

[susbees]

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I heard just news that in Helsinki we have got water during last 3 months so much that it is a record in 150 years.

That's plain greedy!