Pin Test (Update)

[B+.]

Would it be any easier to just remove chunks and freeze? similar to the way Ivan Nielsen does it

Freeze-killed brood (Coloss 3.3.4.1) is another option but removing chunks of brood comb to freeze then trying to fit it back in also marks an area as being different.
The question to ask is what is the correlation between the results from one test versus the results from another. Which gives the most reliable results? They are all pretty low, but, they are all we have.
It would be nice to think a particular test gave a 100% correlation but such things are rare in statistics.

 

[B+.]

The idea of being educated is so you get others to do the dull boring repetitive tasks, whilst getting on with more interesting things.

I'm not sure I agree with that.
I have 3 degrees but am willing to do my share of the work. Prof Brascamp and the others do too. The evidence seems to point to a different conclusion

 

[Beefriendly]

The evidence seems to point to a different conclusion

Yes, you mentioned earlier that you had been breeding from the wrong queen.
I suspect you will find your Prof has many people doing his dirty work for him...they are usually called students

 

[Finman]

The idea of being educated is so you get others to do the dull boring repetitive tasks, whilst getting on with more interesting things.

He offered not only boring task but simple further more.

 

[B+.]

I suspect you will find your Prof has many people doing his dirty work for him...they are usually called students

Actually, No.
I've seen his hives. They're in his back garden. He and his wife do the work themselves...so, you're wrong.

 

[B+.]

Yes, you mentioned earlier that you had been breeding from the wrong queen.

That is a completely different point.
I raised some daughters from a queen that had a colony piled high with supers of honey (i.e. my biggest honey producer). When the breeding values were published, it turned out that the colony which produced the least honey would have been the better choice.
My point was, there is often a "bigger picture" that smaller samples don't show. Most beekeepers would advocate propagating their best queen. I did that (or, at least, the one which appeared the best from my limited perspective). It was the wrong choice when more information was available.

 

[B+.]

I have always justified that the complete removal of the dead pupa was what we were looking for in hygienic behaviour.
I await the published paper for an explanation why they are now saying opening the cell is enough.
.

I have received information to suggest that this isn't an official change to the protocol (yet). Best ignore it for now.

 

[TooBee...]

I have received information to suggest that this isn't an official change to the protocol (yet). Best ignore it for now.

B+
I MAY be WRONG, ... BUT I seem to recall that Marla Spivak said something about the cell being (partially?) opened causes the mother mite to leave the cell, BUT she (usually) cannot begin another breeding cycle, as the premature opening of the cell messes with her reproductive clock, I THINK Marla mentioned that this wasn't fully understood, yet.

So that might be why there is some discussion about including (partially) opened but un-emptied cells: Don't the bees in Morocco do this? They uncap the cell that has a (reproducing) mite, she leaves the cell, and they then reseal it?

 

[B+.]

I THINK Marla mentioned that this wasn't fully understood, yet.

You may be right. There is certainly a lot of discussion about the meaning / implications of the recent results.
I apologise if I "jumped the gun" by raising this publicly as it may confuse some people. To be clear, I will count completely emptied cells as part of the hygiene test (as documented in Coloss). If anything, this will reduce the hygiene percentage so i am not making inflated claims. Personally, I think it is better to be conservative when drawing conclusions from results.

 

[For want of a better word]

That is a completely different point.
I raised some daughters from a queen that had a colony piled high with supers of honey (i.e. my biggest honey producer). When the breeding values were published, it turned out that the colony which produced the least honey would have been the better choice.
My point was, there is often a "bigger picture" that smaller samples don't show. Most beekeepers would advocate propagating their best queen. I did that (or, at least, the one which appeared the best from my limited perspective). It was the wrong choice when more information was available.

The problems of selection!

Will be an ongoing argument as to what one is selecting for???

 

[TooBee...]

The problems of selection!
Will be an ongoing argument as to what one is selecting for???

Here in Ireland (from what I have seen and very recently heard) the only thing being seriously selected for is color, I have met / spoken with several new beeks which are complaining that their bees are aggressive (they don't mind the swarmyness).

I went beyond the Pale and got bees which are placid and low swarmy, so I'm looking forward to next month starting pin tests, it's the first baby step in my Selective Breeding (self) training.

Surely I think we can all agree that Non-Agression and Disease Resistance (non-swarmyness is a bonus) are the two most important things we need to select for - Disease Resistance is the difficult one, Pin Test is a good simple thing all us Beeks can do to aid us in our Selection.

I mentioned the Pin Test to several experienced (and qualified) beeks recently, by the looks on their faces, I got the impression this was an alien concept to them.

 

[B+.]

Here in Ireland (from what I have seen and very recently heard) the only thing being seriously selected for is color, I have met / spoken with several new beeks which are complaining that their bees are aggressive (they don't mind the swarmyness).

I went beyond the Pale and got bees which are placid and low swarmy, so I'm looking forward to next month starting pin tests, it's the first baby step in my Selective Breeding (self) training.

Surely I think we can all agree that Non-Agression and Disease Resistance (non-swarmyness is a bonus) are the two most important things we need to select for - Disease Resistance is the difficult one, Pin Test is a good simple thing all us Beeks can do to aid us in our Selection.

I mentioned the Pin Test to several experienced (and qualified) beeks recently, by the looks on their faces, I got the impression this was an alien concept to them.

I think that reflects the breeding goal chosen: conservation rather than improved performance.
I would suggest that it's still too soon to be sacrificing brood to the pin-test. This could seriously affect the colony development as every bees contribution is significant when the colony has overwintered and is full of older bees that will die soon. Far better to wait until the colony's survival is secure (June/July) before deliberately killing brood.

 

[B+.]

The problems of selection!

Will be an ongoing argument as to what one is selecting for???

Indeed!
I though it was interesting that we are frequently told in this country to "breed from our best" without really having the means to decide what our best is. The majority of beekeepers don't test the way I do, nor do they have the means to evaluate compared to other breeders. This leads to a "limited view" of what options are available. When you combine this with a complete lack of control over what the virgin queen mates with (in the majority of cases), I think it is hardly surprising that we are in the mess that we are.
In Germany, the Deutscher Imker Bund (the German beekeepers Association) recommend that you don't breed from a 2a queen until you have breeding values to work from (by which point the queen has gone through 2 winters) and 4a queens (that are used as drone mothers/grandmothers) are a year/two older than the 2a queen. I think this is a perfectly sensible approach.

 

[Finman]

Disease Resistance is the difficult one, .
.

It is better to say what disease is in question. Pin test does not help in chalkbrood, if you have already chalk brood immune apiary. Same with EFB. It is easy to get away.

 

[Finman]

I mentioned the Pin Test to several experienced (and qualified) beeks recently, by the looks on their faces, I got the impression this was an alien concept to them.

When you read , what then after the pintest, you will be alien pale when you realize how big work is to breed further your bees.

Read about Australian hygienic project in Tasmania.

About varroa. Pin test does not quarantee varroa resistancy.
.

 

[B+.]

About varroa. Pin test does not quarantee varroa resistancy.
.

Absolutely right. I use it as a pre-selection test so only high-expression hygienic colonies are used in VSH testing. It's effectively a filter to reduce the workload.
I am told that we now have 100% VSH carnica so the emphasis will be on increasing the number so they can be propagated without inbreeding

 

[Hebeegeebee]

The problems of selection!

Will be an ongoing argument as to what one is selecting for???

Discussion, surely.

 

[For want of a better word]

Absolutely right. I use it as a pre-selection test so only high-expression hygienic colonies are used in VSH testing. It's effectively a filter to reduce the workload.
I am told that we now have 100% VSH carnica so the emphasis will be on increasing the number so they can be propagated without inbreeding

Some very serious DNA work needs to be undertaken to find out which genes are responsible for VSH... if indeed it is genetic... probably is if carried forward in following generation.

Once the sequence is identified it can then be looked for in other honeybee sub species and selected for.

A benefit to all beekeepers.

 

[Beefriendly]

The sequence.......
Think you will find it's polygenic.

 

[Finman]

A benefit to all beekeepers.

Halleluja jee