Moggs
Field Bee
For the record, 12 weeks of study and rigorous written examinations and practical assessments - but hey, let's not get personal
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oxalic acid sublimation
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Beanwood
House Bee
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IF we want to get back to the original subject, I believe FFP3 is the recommendation, and that with a pair of safety goggles to protect your eyes, these should do the job (Moggs - please feel free to advise if I have this wrong): http://www.screwfix.com/p/moulded-valved-respiratory-masks-ffp3-pack-of-5/7332d For goodness sake, at £7.99 for 5 masks (5 years of OA?) - I wouldn't bother NOT wearing one, but then MY health is worth more than that.
Despite various apparently ludicrous H&S rules enforced in the workplace, as a private individual, it's up to you. Personally I wear eye, ear, hand and leg protection when using my chainsaw, eye protection when using saws, and even tie of the base of a ladder to prevent it slipping before climbing to first floor height or beyond - all for MY protection, and not enforced by anyone.
Before continuing the castigation though, let's not forget, in years gone by, asbestos was considered safe....
Despite various apparently ludicrous H&S rules enforced in the workplace, as a private individual, it's up to you. Personally I wear eye, ear, hand and leg protection when using my chainsaw, eye protection when using saws, and even tie of the base of a ladder to prevent it slipping before climbing to first floor height or beyond - all for MY protection, and not enforced by anyone.
Before continuing the castigation though, let's not forget, in years gone by, asbestos was considered safe....
Moggs
Field Bee
As was smoking!
Yet there is still a lot of smoke around, chimneys, vehicle exhausts, bonfires, volcanos, etc.
Goodwood
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Last night i emailed a respirator supplier to enquire which filters for various toxic jobs i have lined up and received the following:
144-62-7 Oxalic acid P2 or P3, colour code white
7704-34-9 Sulphur Particle filter P2 or P3, colour code white
7446-09-5 Sulphur Dioxide Gas filter E, colour code yellow
For what its worth, many years ago, before the days of H&S, i worked in a busy district general hospital in one of my fist jobs as a junior doctor - on a respiratory unit.
Over a short twelve month post I vividly remember a significant number of victims of acid and alkaline fume inhalation. In a number of patients the damage was acute needing intensive life supporting measures. However in a number of cases this then progressed to a chronic life changing and life threatening condition of pulmonary fibrosis as lung tissue scarring took hold, stiffeningthe lung tissue and causing diminishing ability to absorb oxygen
Thankfully these incidences are now quite rare due to the irritating but life saving awareness of H&S.
Post rude comments about it if you want but watching someone turning purple over a period of days and dying a slow death due to shortness of breath ...and leaving grieving relatives simply because of five minutes of ignorance or carelessness ....is something I would not want to experiience again.
Oxalic acid sublimation is planned for my apiary.
But then so is a full face mask and the appropriate filter.
Dont forget the eyes...not only can the cornea be damged but a significant ammount of nasty stuff can be absobed.
144-62-7 Oxalic acid P2 or P3, colour code white
7704-34-9 Sulphur Particle filter P2 or P3, colour code white
7446-09-5 Sulphur Dioxide Gas filter E, colour code yellow
For what its worth, many years ago, before the days of H&S, i worked in a busy district general hospital in one of my fist jobs as a junior doctor - on a respiratory unit.
Over a short twelve month post I vividly remember a significant number of victims of acid and alkaline fume inhalation. In a number of patients the damage was acute needing intensive life supporting measures. However in a number of cases this then progressed to a chronic life changing and life threatening condition of pulmonary fibrosis as lung tissue scarring took hold, stiffeningthe lung tissue and causing diminishing ability to absorb oxygen
Thankfully these incidences are now quite rare due to the irritating but life saving awareness of H&S.
Post rude comments about it if you want but watching someone turning purple over a period of days and dying a slow death due to shortness of breath ...and leaving grieving relatives simply because of five minutes of ignorance or carelessness ....is something I would not want to experiience again.
Oxalic acid sublimation is planned for my apiary.
But then so is a full face mask and the appropriate filter.
Dont forget the eyes...not only can the cornea be damged but a significant ammount of nasty stuff can be absobed.
Cussword
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Of course you will be ill if you stand there & inhale the damned stuff!!
It's amazing that we've survived this long doing the things H& S think will kill us all.
It would be nice to think that most of the people that read this forum have the common sense not to do that. If you notice, the people that say they don't wear protection always say that to inhale the fumes would be dangerous.
Not H&S,, Common Sense
It's amazing that we've survived this long doing the things H& S think will kill us all.
It would be nice to think that most of the people that read this forum have the common sense not to do that. If you notice, the people that say they don't wear protection always say that to inhale the fumes would be dangerous.
Not H&S,, Common Sense
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Quis Custodiet
Field Bee
I have just been speaking to someone who was at the Irish Ploughing Championships today. They were advised of new EU regulations which require anyone using weedkiller to attend a two day course and to be registered and to have an identifying number. This applies to small domestic / private users and to agricultural contractors.
Here one has to be registered if one wishes to keep a few farmyard hens!
The world has gone mad, very mad.
Here one has to be registered if one wishes to keep a few farmyard hens!
The world has gone mad, very mad.
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I read quite a few cries of 'common sense' on here but shouted by idiots I'm afraid. I don't believe in uber H&S obsession by a long chalk - but isn't 'common sense' just spending the price of a few jars of honey on a simple bog standard face mask? we're not talking getting all togged up in full NBC gear FFS!
In my view - especially when telling beginners, we should be teaching the precautionary route - they can make their own minds up later.
'registering' for keeping poultry BTW just involves giving your name and address when buying food in bulk (20KG sacks) nothing more
as for weedkiller spraying, a PITA I know but only applies to buying bulk quantities of concentrated weedkiller - but even now you have to show your parish holding number to get it. Don't fancy spending a couple of hundred quid on a spraying course, so I shall be stocking up before the regulations change at the end of this year
Remember years ago telling a not so junior deck officer that 'common sense' says he should't wear a ring on deck and him snorting, rolling his eyes and muttering about elf an safety; only later to have a severe snatching of a rope cause an 'avulsion' or degloving injury. The look of surprise on his face when he looked at his ring finger - nothing but bone devoid of skin and muscle was rather memorable I must admit
In my view - especially when telling beginners, we should be teaching the precautionary route - they can make their own minds up later.
'registering' for keeping poultry BTW just involves giving your name and address when buying food in bulk (20KG sacks) nothing more
as for weedkiller spraying, a PITA I know but only applies to buying bulk quantities of concentrated weedkiller - but even now you have to show your parish holding number to get it. Don't fancy spending a couple of hundred quid on a spraying course, so I shall be stocking up before the regulations change at the end of this year
Remember years ago telling a not so junior deck officer that 'common sense' says he should't wear a ring on deck and him snorting, rolling his eyes and muttering about elf an safety; only later to have a severe snatching of a rope cause an 'avulsion' or degloving injury. The look of surprise on his face when he looked at his ring finger - nothing but bone devoid of skin and muscle was rather memorable I must admit
Quis Custodiet
Field Bee
The trust of the thread is not against taking sensible precautions at any time, to preserve health and well being. But against the mindless bureaucracy that is imposed on our lives, usually by little yes men, who invariably lack the ability to think for themselves.
I agree entirely with you that newcomers should be taught safe working practices, acids can be dangerous substances. You will probably be able to recall this incident better than I; did not some people in the West country have a very serious mishap with acid when attending to their hives? This would have happened about fifteen years ago.
The legalities of poultry keeping here do not seem to be as you described. I have one hen - bought at a horse fair to save her from being trampled. I have been informed that if she were kept without my being registered and having a flock/herd no., it would be illegal! Obtaining poultry food in any quantity is not a problem.
On the subject of animal food, for a short time a few years ago, it was illegal for a supplier to carry horse food and dog food in the same load. No logical reason was given for this, but outrage from farmers and Redmills caused a sudden "change of heart".
I agree entirely with you that newcomers should be taught safe working practices, acids can be dangerous substances. You will probably be able to recall this incident better than I; did not some people in the West country have a very serious mishap with acid when attending to their hives? This would have happened about fifteen years ago.
The legalities of poultry keeping here do not seem to be as you described. I have one hen - bought at a horse fair to save her from being trampled. I have been informed that if she were kept without my being registered and having a flock/herd no., it would be illegal! Obtaining poultry food in any quantity is not a problem.
On the subject of animal food, for a short time a few years ago, it was illegal for a supplier to carry horse food and dog food in the same load. No logical reason was given for this, but outrage from farmers and Redmills caused a sudden "change of heart".
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The legalities of poultry keeping here do not seem to be as you described. I have one hen - bought at a horse fair to save her from being trampled
I have 11 hens and a cockerel in my garden. I am not allowed, by DEFRA, to feed them any kitchen scraps
I have 11 hens and a cockerel in my garden. I am not allowed, by DEFRA, to feed them any kitchen scraps
Beanwood
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Rather frustratingly, the thread has been hijacked. The ACTUAL perfectly sensible question was:
Yet another thread that started perfectly sensibly, but has been twisted to serve someones bickering nature. Frankly it's ridiculous.
Common sense? Let's see if we can start with common courtesy, and work up from there shall we?
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No, the thrust of this thread was simple - what mask should the OP buy - then went rambling on about peoples dislike of 'mindless bureaucracy' I have half a dozen hens - no need to register
Quis Custodiet
Field Bee
No, the thrust of this thread was simple - what mask should the OP buy - then went rambling on about peoples dislike of 'mindless bureaucracy' I have half a dozen hens - no need to register
Would you be kind enough to send me a few eggs please?
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I'll have to flatten them to go through the post box
Frankly it's ridiculous.-
So, you consider it perfectly OK to leave the thread with some idiots suggesting there is never ever a problem with inhaling/ingesting/absorbing oxalic acid?
That is where the thread should be on the beginners section where anything can be advocated, without any redress.
HSE (at work) has to be idiot proof. There are enough darwin award wannabees out there, who have to be restrained within the safety framework. That goes for actions of other workers, too. Yet here we have the anti-HSE mob going to work with gusto. Very true that HSE at work does not specifically cover anything that a private individual might do while at home and alone.
No PPE with chemicals, incandescent light bulbs underneath honey buckets, recovering swarms from high places with unsafe access. Just to name a few on this forum.
On another forum, recently, there was the hideous suggestion of running an extention lead through the wall and plugging into a ring main socket of the next door house. Some could not see any danger in that or suggested the risks were acceptable. Yeah right. Possibility of lethal voltage between live and earth, multiple system earthing possibilities, risk of fire from overloading, possibility of live pins on a three pin plug. Yeah right, really safe!
The poster's question was answered early on, about half way down the first page, before the dinosaurs got in on the act.
So, you consider it perfectly OK to leave the thread with some idiots suggesting there is never ever a problem with inhaling/ingesting/absorbing oxalic acid?
That is where the thread should be on the beginners section where anything can be advocated, without any redress.
HSE (at work) has to be idiot proof. There are enough darwin award wannabees out there, who have to be restrained within the safety framework. That goes for actions of other workers, too. Yet here we have the anti-HSE mob going to work with gusto. Very true that HSE at work does not specifically cover anything that a private individual might do while at home and alone.
No PPE with chemicals, incandescent light bulbs underneath honey buckets, recovering swarms from high places with unsafe access. Just to name a few on this forum.
On another forum, recently, there was the hideous suggestion of running an extention lead through the wall and plugging into a ring main socket of the next door house. Some could not see any danger in that or suggested the risks were acceptable. Yeah right. Possibility of lethal voltage between live and earth, multiple system earthing possibilities, risk of fire from overloading, possibility of live pins on a three pin plug. Yeah right, really safe!
The poster's question was answered early on, about half way down the first page, before the dinosaurs got in on the act.
Cussword
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I do wear a mask to perform many activities, been asthmatic for over 60 years. I also believe as I said before that it would not be safe to inhale the fumes, any fumes.
The OP's question was answered by several people and the thread diverged as many often do, even a mod got involved.
Instead of bleating that the thread went off topic, stop reading it!
Any beginner who, after reading this thread, thinks it is safe to inhale the fumes would not have enough sense to keep bees in the first place.
As I said, I wear a mask, but I defend anyone's right to make their own minds up.
I also would defend JBM's and Rab's right to call me or anyone else an idiot, if that is their belief.
The OP's question was answered by several people and the thread diverged as many often do, even a mod got involved
. Instead of bleating that the thread went off topic, stop reading it!
Any beginner who, after reading this thread, thinks it is safe to inhale the fumes would not have enough sense to keep bees in the first place.
As I said, I wear a mask, but I defend anyone's right to make their own minds up.
I also would defend JBM's and Rab's right to call me or anyone else an idiot, if that is their belief.
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Thymallus
Drone Bee
I questioned our trading standards lady as to why we needed to label our mustard's with the allergen advice "contains mustard" in bold etc; as it was pretty obvious what allergen they contained.
She explained that they have had cases were people who are mildly allergic to mustard go around looking for home made mustard products that don't have that advice on them. Eat them, become ill and try and sue the arsssse off you because the label didn't say that the product contained mustard as an allergen.
The obvious allergen advice needs to be added simply to protect yourself!
I had a similar case with a jar of honey sold from one of small places I used to supply. Being naive I used to put a 4 year best before date on the jar....honey never goes off....Right!
I got a phone call saying a lady had returned a jar of my honey as it was off. It was off!
It was 1 month from the 4 year best before (batch numbers do come in useful) and had a thick scummy smelly liquid layer on the top of the jar. Obviously I replaced it and refunded the money she had paid for it.
I suspect it was opened, lid left loose stood unnoticed at back of cupboard for nealry 4 years. The honey absorbed water, diluted sugar solution on surface allowed yeasts and bacteria etc etc.
Now I put a 1 year "best before" from the bottling date to try protect myself against these idiots.
