Nucleus Swarm Control Method

[Stickyfingers]

Seems simple enough but why remove large or sealed QC's in the parent colony?

 

[dickbowyer]

Because you only want to leave one viable queen cell otherwise you have high risk of cast swarm(s).

 

[Stickyfingers]

Thanks

 

[richardbees]

ALSO you don't know when a sealed Q cell will hatch but you do know that an unsealed Q cell won't hatch in under 8 days.

...therefore you can safely move the hive containing the Qcell + brood from one side of the hive containing the Q + flying bees to the other side after a week resulting 9in all the flying bees that emerged to transfer into the Q+ hive; which is your honey producer.

If it's a sealed Q cell you don't know when it'll hatch so can't move that hive as she may be up on the mating flight

Sorry, didn't explain very well but just give it some thought....

hope it helps

 

[drstitson]

and large (read long) QCs may represent larvae that have fallen away from the royal jelly.

 

[clv101]

Is the "nucleus swarm control method" that described in the Haynes Bee Manual? Summarised as:

1. Place the frame with the queen (without any queen cells) in a nuc box somewhere else in the apiary.
2. Add a couple of frames of stores and shake in some more bees.
3. Fill nuc with frames of foundation and stuff the entrance with grass.
4. In the swarming colony, destroy any sealed queen cells.
5. Leave a couple of queen cells with larva.
6. Move all the frames together and fill in gap with foundation frames.
7. Release nuc the next day, at dusk.
8. Seven days later choose one queen cell and destroy all others.
9. Three weeks later, check queen has successfully mated.

 

[Skyhook]

OK, stickyfingers beat me to it- I was going to post about this method, so I'll tag onto this thread.

I've not really come across this as a means of swarm control before. I read about it this morning on the 'artificial swarm' thread. I then went to my apiary and found queen cells in one hive. I spent some time havering whether to AS or make up a nuc- in the end I went with AS, as I tried reading up on the nuc method, and couldn't find much breadth of experience to refer to: although I was tempted to make up a nuc as it seemed likely to impact less on honey production.

Who has used it, and with what results? Does it 'cool down' the hive enough to prevent swarming?


.

 

[Black Comb]

I've used it and it works.
What the original article says (was available as a download from BBKA site beofre they changed it) but the Haynes manual does to is that it is imperative you do not miss any queen cells. So you need to shake all the remaining frames to be absolutely certain.
I think the original said leave ony one cell.

 

[Skyhook]

I've used it and it works.
What the original article says (was available as a download from BBKA site beofre they changed it) but the Haynes manual does to is that it is imperative you do not miss any queen cells. So you need to shake all the remaining frames to be absolutely certain.
I think the original said leave ony one cell.

So are you saying leave no cells whatsoever in the main hive?

 

[Black Comb]

No you leave one. If this fails you still,have a queen. You do not shake the frame with this one queen cell on it.

I suppose the Haynes way is insurance but if you let one hatch when there is another cell there they will swarm.

 

[Black Comb]

Here is the original written by an RBI for the BBKA.

On finding queen cells (none of which are sealed) during a regular inspection proceed as follows…

Nucleus method – making up the nuc
1. Put a frame of food plus bees into nuc box (check for queen cells & remove)
2. Find the queen and put her and the frame she is on in the nuc box. Remove all queen cells from this frame. There should also be a small amount of brood on this comb
3. Shake in bees from two more frames
4. Close with a dummy board
5. Block the entrance with grass and place the nuc to one side (bees should release themselves after 24-48hrs)
6. Feed the nucleus if necessary
This will keep the old queen as a back-up if the new queen should fail.

Nucleus method – the colony
1. Check the combs in the colony carefully. Remove only very large, nearly sealed queen cells
2. Pick an open queen cell with a larva, in a good position, and mark on the frame
3. Fill up any gaps with spare frames and close up the colony
Nucleus method – one week later
1. Check the marked frame for the chosen queen cell, don’t shake the frame! If the chosen queen cell is missing or damaged choose another sealed queen cell
2. Remove all other queen cells from that frame
3. Shake bees from all other frames and remove all other queen cells

Leave the colony 3 weeks and then check for a laying queen

Build up nucleus into a colony or unite later
Never leave more than one queen cell in a colony!

 

[galileo]

I've seen this used successfully at the local training apiary several times. The key seems to be to leave only ONE queen cell in the main hive. It's always suppressed swarming, and the only time the old queen has had to be put back has been due to failure of the new queen to get properly mated.

The only downside I can see though is that as with some other methods, the main colony is enduring a hiatus in brood production for as long as it takes to get a new queen, with a consequent diminution of foraging strength. Then again, it may well be that factor which stops the swarming impulse, so swings and roundabouts.

 

[MandF]

I've seen this used successfully at the local training apiary several times. The key seems to be to leave only ONE queen cell in the main hive. It's always suppressed swarming, and the only time the old queen has had to be put back has been due to failure of the new queen to get properly mated.

The only downside I can see though is that as with some other methods, the main colony is enduring a hiatus in brood production for as long as it takes to get a new queen, with a consequent diminution of foraging strength. Then again, it may well be that factor which stops the swarming impulse, so swings and roundabouts.

If you make up the nuc to the side of the original hive, you can move it to the other side after a week so newly foraging bees from the nuc will drift into the main hive (which still has the supers on it), then do the same a week later. If you keep an eye on the amount of stores in the nuc you can do this long enough to confirm the new queen is mated and laying ok, then reunite the nuc.

During the brood break in the main hive you wont have lost any foragers as you are drifting them from the nuc.

 

[galileo]

During the brood break in the main hive you wont have lost any foragers as you are drifting them from the nuc.

Ahhhh... damned cunning! Thank you for this MandF, that's my downside dealt with very elegantly.

The nuc, of course, could be fed syrup, without any fear of it finding its way into the supers. And...... after the 3-5 weeks are done and a new queen is laying, there's still a good chance that the nuc could be made viable for wintering, should that be desired.

 

[richardbees]

If you make up the nuc to the side of the original hive, you can move it to the other side after a week so newly foraging bees from the nuc will drift into the main hive (which still has the supers on it), then do the same a week later

maybe I'm missing something but I can't see the difference between this and a routine 'artificial swarm'?

 

[For want of a better word]

If you make up the nuc to the side of the original hive, you can move it to the other side after a week so newly foraging bees from the nuc will drift into the main hive (which still has the supers on it), then do the same a week later

maybe I'm missing something but I can't see the difference between this and a routine 'artificial swarm'?

No need for another broodbox/ floor/ roof etc?..... and could be used for increase if old queen is a nice layer????

 

[richardbees]

icanhopit

thanks - yes, see how it may be useful

 

[For want of a better word]

icanhopit

thanks - yes, see how it may be useful

NO...

thank you !!!.... at last a sensible debate!

 

[alanf]

maybe I'm missing something but I can't see the difference between this and a routine 'artificial swarm'?

As already noted, it needs less extra kit.

However the spatial difference is that for the Pagden style AS the queen stays on the original site; for the nucleus method as described, the queen moves out leaving a queen cell on the original site.

 

[oliver90owner]

...therefore you can safely move the hive containing the Qcell + brood from one side of the hive containing the Q + flying bees to the other side after a week resulting 9in all the flying bees that emerged to transfer into the Q+ hive; which is your honey producer.

Yes more mis-information, yet again. New beeks will be rightly muddled reading this garbage.

For a start most bees transferring would be younger bees and would not be foragers for another couple of weeks so a waste of time doing it for that reason.

The real reason for doing that particular manipulation within an A/S is to deplete the colony (with the usual two queen cells) of flying bees, thereby avoiding a cast swarm on emergence of the first queen.

Secondly, with a nuc hive moved 'somewhere else in the apiary' the foragers would simply be lost (unless 'somwhere else' was adjacent to another colony).

There are simple reasons for the steps in the methoid and once the new beek actually understands why, they will see how the system works.

In this instance a nuc hive is used, into which to transfer the queen. This should not be muddled with the normal Padgen method where the queen is placed in a fresh box on the old site. If a nuc were used for that, it would be absolutely full of bees after one day! These methods work, but only properly if followed as per design!