Not sure what happened

[Levitt53]

Hi, I've been beekeeping for four years now but I have to say I haven't had to deal with swarm cells very often. I've only ever really done pro-active splits not re-active ones.

I collected a very large swarm on 30th April and put them into a full size hive the next day full of foundation. I gave them 2 frames of stores 3 days later. They were building up the foundation nicely. On 14th May I found and marked the Queen and they had 6 sides of BIAS at this stage. A few days later I added a QE and a super of foundation as the brood box was pretty full however they never got round to doing anything with it. By 21st May there was 11 sides of BIAS, great I thought and all pretty text book. On 29th there were a few swarm cells. I have to admit to have been running out of time at this stage of my inspection, running out of space and equipment (including frames) so I panicked a bit. Found an old stand and then found the queen. I left the queen on a frame of brood (no QCs) on the original site and moved all the rest of the brood to the new position quite a way away. Due to my lack of frames I had to leave the Q+ hive with only 7 frames and a dummy board (I made the rest in the morning and put them in quickly). The new hive I reduced down to 1 QC and marked it's position. Despite my panic I thought I'd done well at this stage.


1st June I looked at the Q- hive first and knocked down a few more QCs. All good so far. Then I looked into the Q+ hive and there were hardly any bees in there. I had assumed that the flying bees would have returned there and it was an active colony before. There was really only the one frame of bees, they were very inactive and the Queen was not there. Under the circumstances I don't think I could have missed her. They obviously may have been very swarmy bees but I can only assume they swarmed anyway and have left no means for the colony to requeen. I will double check it again tomorrow but if I find there is no Queen, QCs or eggs I think I will just wait for all the brood to hatch and then combine this little lot with the Q- hive with newspaper.


Questions: Basically did I do anything wrong (except leave it 8 days to inspect)? Do you think they have still swarmed despite apparently not leaving any way for the remaining bees to requeen? Should I combine this lot with the Q- colony (same genes but might upset the virgin queen?) or another one?

 

[enrico]

My guess is that most of the young bees will have been nurse bees, thanks why they never returned to the old hive.
Where the queen went we will never know!
E

 

[eltalia]

Winding back to the original manipulation the error there was in not recognising
they were backfilling the BC instead of moving up, that is fixed by selective
relocation of stores frames into the super and interleaving some new or drawn
frames to the extents of the broodnest in the BC, not simply "throwing a box on".

How you've then handled your choice in effectively splitting the colony is another set
of errors allbeit classic "I read it in a book" circumstance.
Queenright gets moved out. IF they cannot be at least a few kilometres away lock them
down for at least 36hours and always fit a QR to the entrance for 14days at least.
Queenless takes the original position and is also fitted with a QR up until 3days after QCs
are capped - *then* wait a day or so to remove QCs not required.

Yes, that queen has swarmed, or more accurately bees have brought on an abscond
leaving older capped brood to emerge only. It matters little which colony the orphans
are put into.
I attach an example of a retail QR as few seem to be aware of their use.
It is easy enough to knock up a bespoke device, 4.5mm high is the magic number.

Bill

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

here we go again - bee abuse promoted - or maybe it's all just a sales pitch for head in the sand TBH beekeeping kit.

Looks like you did everything right for a Pagden A/S Levitt53, I guess, however hard you say you looked, you missed a QC - I actually found one colony this year that had started QC's so deep in the comb, there is no way you would have seen it on a frame of bees until a day or two before capping. The aftermath of a mid Pagden swarming can look a wee bit catastrophic when you next check the hive.

 

[Levitt53]

Thanks Jenkinsbrynmair. Yes the previous post confused me. I added the super as it was hot and there were so many bees, I wasn't surprised they didn't do anything with it. I've just looked at them again and they are a sorry bunch. No queen or eggs and just one seam of very lethargic bees. The queen was unmarked so possibly they were superseding. I guess I'll never know. I'll combine or shake out I think, there aren't enough to worry about.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks Jenkinsbrynmair. Yes the previous post confused me. I added the super as it was hot and there were so many bees, I wasn't surprised they didn't do anything with it. I've just looked at them again and they are a sorry bunch. No queen or eggs and just one seam of very lethargic bees. The queen was unmarked so possibly they were superseding. I guess I'll never know. I'll combine or shake out I think, there aren't enough to worry about.

Yes, he does seem to specialise in posting incomprehensible drivel.#
I'd shake them out, best way all round.

 

[beeno]

Levitt53, It is not that unusual for the AS to swarm. If the queen is very skinny i.e. slimmed down to swarm I put a queen excluder over the entrance for a week. Usually she is fat again then and you can let any desperate drones out that are buzzing around as and when.

 

[eltalia]

Thanks Jenkinsbrynmair. Yes the previous post confused me. I added the super as it was hot and there were so many bees, I wasn't surprised they didn't do anything with it. I've just looked at them again and they are a sorry bunch. No queen or eggs and just one seam of very lethargic bees. The queen was unmarked so possibly they were superseding. I guess I'll never know. I'll combine or shake out I think, there aren't enough to worry about.

Fair enough to be confused when biology confronts "ABZ of Bees" dogma, a chant quite
well supported by some in this place and only to force new players into Guilt Corner as
the step they missed is shoved down the proverbial throat. Four years into that guilt trip
it is no surprise the freshness of contrast holds a degree of challenge for you.
If you can step away from that social pressure yourself and those bees in your care will benefit.
Regardless of any confusion you indicate you accept both the advice and the resolution for
those walking dead bees.
Lucks to them, hope for you.

Bill

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

More noise

 

[Anduril]

How you've then handled your choice in effectively splitting the colony is another set
of errors allbeit classic "I read it in a book" circumstance.
Queenright gets moved out. IF they cannot be at least a few kilometres away lock them
down for at least 36hours and always fit a QR to the entrance for 14days at least.
Queenless takes the original position and is also fitted with a QR up until 3days after QCs
are capped - *then* wait a day or so to remove QCs not required.
Bill

Aussie beekeepers beg to differ!
https://youtu.be/nBWDxcl7k_Y
https://youtu.be/E_zJ2iMr2ts

 

[eltalia]

"Aussie beekeepers beg to differ! "

Ahhhem... with close to 10K b'keeps running over 500K registered colonys
you rely on two latecomers sheathed in boilersuits running eweT00b channels?
I know both well, can name at least four more of the same genre.
Tip?
The second a tutorial is introduced from behind a PPE wall, step away... bound
to be loaded with nonsencsical BS. We say here "hogget dressed as lamb".
Translated?
"Close but not the real deal".

/folds hands/

Bill
--
ref;
https://www.google.com.au/url?q=htt...qBk0QFggRMAM&usg=AOvVaw1vdrQS6tvHWfcc7pDK7pun

 

[Anduril]

"Aussie beekeepers beg to differ! "

Ahhhem... with close to 10K b'keeps running over 500K registered colonys
you rely on two latecomers sheathed in boilersuits running eweT00b channels?
I know both well, can name at least four more of the same genre.
Tip?
The second a tutorial is introduced from behind a PPE wall, step away... bound
to be loaded with nonsencsical BS. We say here "hogget dressed as lamb".
Translated?
"Close but not the real deal".

/folds hands/

Bill
--
ref;
https://www.google.com.au/url?q=htt...qBk0QFggRMAM&usg=AOvVaw1vdrQS6tvHWfcc7pDK7pun

Obviously you haven't read page 29
/chortles/
/wrinkles nose/

 

[eltalia]

Obviously you haven't read page 29
/chortles/
/wrinkles nose/

... and your interpretation is?
The link is provided as reference for stats I used, nought else nor
read as a work.
And no intention to.
Find yourself another dry gully to paddle up... the advice stands.

/browneye/


Bill

 

[Anduril]

Thank you for the 'Australian Beekeeping Guide' that shows the beekeeping manipulations are universal. This is the beginner's section. Levitt53 can read this and be assured JBM's advice is correct.

 

[Millet]

... and your interpretation is?
The link is provided as reference for stats I used, nought else nor
read as a work.
And no intention to.
Find yourself another dry gully to paddle up... the advice stands.

/browneye/


Bill

Gadey Bill ..you obviously know your onions with the little Devils we deal with in this country and yours..could you maybe lend a little slack and explain in idiot proof language instead of scientific type language.

 

[eltalia]

@Millet

Sure thing M8... and have them "devils" write me up in complaint I am torpedoing
their sabot (boat)??
Luckily I care more for bees and their care then the twisted egos of a few marroons,
hey? (rhetorical)
Here goes.
Let's leave to one side how the swarm was dealt with and address only the decision
to split, how that was done. We can do the other later IF required.
So - in a nutshell - it is a matter of biological efficiency, following the science.
Knowing the biology makes the path clear as choice, there is no way to simplify this
as circumstance can vary as many would attest to.

However, in this case we have two definites.
**An established queenright colony.
** Said colony preparing to reproduce (swarm)
Remembering the queenright is set to go forward, regardless, it is the
new colony we need to nurture - and in doing that it is imperative for efficiency's sake
we give it not just BIAS to build a queen from but also the means to maintain both
impetus to rebuild *and* the means to achieve this in an uninterrupted supply of food.
So it is it is the **foragers** present which are prime in the decision.
This knowledge (biological common sense) makes the choice easy.
**The new colony remains onsite.
** The queenright gets moved away - how and in what manner is optional.
This move of the queenright achieves two things;
a.) Totally subverts the swarm urge in providing new horizons.
b.) Removes the bees awareness of drone groups it has decided on
at the old location, assuming an offsite relocate is an option.
As we do not know ALL the factors behind a swarm urge it is a failsafe to also remove
any possibilty of the queen flying by applying a QR to the entrance. This is removed
once it is evident they are not going to continue building QCs.

Now it will be clear to many a colony in either state will survive, hence we see these
contradictions in how to go about it. Yet how many actually ponder on *efficiency* in
their husbandry..?.. not big on many agendas I have come across in my Life.
Also true with that is the number I've witnessed firsthand whining on how beekeeping
just does not work for them, in either resilient hives or money in the Bank. I just smile...
.. biology will always humble, understanding it makes money.
Help?

Bill

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

"Aussie beekeepers beg to differ! "

Ahhhem... with close to 10K b'keeps running over 500K registered colonys
you rely on two latecomers sheathed in boilersuits running eweT00b channels?

Almost as bad as a beekeeper who claims he only has two top bar hives and then progresses to flood the forum with pseudo scientific waffle.
Or is that a lie as well?

 

[eltalia]

Almost as bad as a beekeeper who claims he only has two top bar hives and then progresses to
flood the forum with pseudo scientific waffle.
Or is that a lie as well?

"as seen by everyone"(attached).
0r at least the other 88 who can read.

Settle Petal... I do understand your (in)security issues where you see
comment as challenge. Relax, there is none. Sit back and bottle your
prejudices as you might just learn quite some interesting - new to you
information.
Deal is when you post something I do not know I'll certainly credit you
in acknowledgement - as would any gentleman beekeeper.

/sweeps mortarboard and gown/

Bill

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Deal is when you post something I do not know......

There is a saying in UK beekeeping cirlcles - if a beekeeper tells you he knows everything - you've just hear the first lie, be prepared for more to follow.
Thanks for clearing that up for us.
try stringing words together into a comprehensible sentence in future - that would be a start

 

[enrico]

So eltalia can I just confirm that you believe a brood break by giving all the flyers to the new queen who is still a queen cell is the correct way to go? In the UK maybe we have a smaller window of nectar flow than you and to force a brood break in this way would seem to be unwise.
Please be aware that beekeeping habits in each Country will be different because of forage and climate. It is therefore better to debate a subject rather than to state what it is right and true in your own eyes.
This is not intended to be rude or offensive, just educational!
E