Hurrah for Thorne's - they still sell generic oxalic acid crystals!

[Tremyfro]

What I don't understand is how...by producing a product...which has additives and applying for a license for that product...that company then also acquires the right to stop you using a similar product. If you buy the purer product.....without the additives.... can they stop you using it. A bit like a drug company...adding other products to aspirin...calling it something else...then stopping you from buying and using pure aspirin.
Does the license also prevent any other form of treatment?...no it doesn't.
Does every treatment for bees require a license?...no it doesn't!
Perhaps what we need is a beekeepers license to treat bees....not individual drug company licences which profit from knowledge acquired by beekeepers over many years.

 

[Stiffy]

Could perhaps ask this person to get involved in getting generic oxalic registered....

I use OA to clean hive parts but never knew it was just as good for washing your hands???
S

 

[masterBK]

There is still the potential problem of oxalic acid being on the poisons and explosives precursors list and so technically illegal to buy/hold it without a license even though at the moment no-one seems to be enforcing it.

 

[Beefriendly]

Could perhaps ask this person to get involved in getting generic oxalic registered....

The thought had crossed my palms
Perhaps now gone?

 

[colinc]

Wondering who it is has the shares in LAIF? why not a British based chemical company?????


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[Gilberdyke John]

Is table salt (sodium chloride) or vinegar (Acetic acid) subject to all this nonsense?

 

[For want of a better word]

There is still the potential problem of oxalic acid being on the poisons and explosives precursors list and so technically illegal to buy/hold it without a license even though at the moment no-one seems to be enforcing it.

Would appear to be OK to obtain OA for commercial use in boat yards etc... now I seem to recall another company was going to bring another licenced product containing OA for use as a beekeeping medicine?

Makes one gasp to have to pay a staggering £10.50+ for a fancy packet with contents worth no more than 35p!

Is there still a monopolies commission... or did the Tories send them to Room 101?

Gool Piran

 

[colinc]

Would appear to be OK to obtain OA for commercial use in boat yards etc... now I seem to recall another company was going to bring another licenced product containing OA for use as a beekeeping medicine?



Makes one gasp to have to pay a staggering £10.50+ for a fancy packet with contents worth no more than 35p!



Is there still a monopolies commission... or did the Tories send them to Room 101?



Gool Piran

Licencing of medications enforces a monopoly to allow the developer to recoup costs. The issue is where companies apply for the sole licence for medications in longterm current use. That is always going to smack of profiteering. LAIF did not develop invent or discover OA they are just cashing in.


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[Amari]

As a trustee of the BBKA, I can tell you that this is something that we have discussed between ourselves to see if we might be able to help. One issue we can see is that the VMD is going to want to qualify what exactly "Oxalic acid" is.
If they work with an individual supplier, then there is a specification for a particular drug or compound. That can then be submitted into the VMD approval process, tested and eventually approved for use (hopefully).
I think there would have to be a particular specification/concentration etc for Oxalic acid to be submitted to the VMD to start the approval process.
It would be useful to talk to someone with some real knowledge in this space.
Simon

My 'O' level chemistry (1957) is a bit rusty but maybe all that needs specifying is oxalic acid crystals. That is the pure product and questions of concentration of a mixture or a solution don't arise.

 

[dpearce4]

There is still the potential problem of oxalic acid being on the poisons and explosives precursors list and so technically illegal to buy/hold it without a license even though at the moment no-one seems to be enforcing it.

Maybe there should be a way to make the BBKA membership card a licence for this product.

 

[user 3509]

Maybe there should be a way to make the BBKA membership card a licence for this product.

What a great idea, but the only problem is the government would probably not agree to such a sensible and easy solution.

 

[Mint Bee]

The forum could stump up the £21,420 application fee for registering oxalic acid based on well-established use with the VMD. That is the simple bit, if this route is accepted by the agency. We will need an oxalic acid supplier that meets current Good Manufacturing Practice, a Qualified Person for batch release, a Quality Management System, Good Distribution Practice system, annual reports audits and fees, and a mechanism for monitoring pharmacovigilance (or contract these activities to a third party). The list and expense goes on unless we have the skills within the forum to carry out the work FOC

None of this allows for the authoring of a marketing application for the VMD to review in the first place. For novel human medicines this would easily cost a company a multi seven figure sum to got from final trials to market authorisation. Veterinary medicines are not my area, but I would expect even for a relative simple application as for OA, the figures for completing a successful application would be multiple six figures.

 

[Eyeman]

But Hurrah! they still sell oxalic acid crystals (p.65) for 'cleaning weathered cedar..." !!
Puzzlingly, T's website still lists generic OA as a Varroa treatment. I fear they risk imminent prosecution.

Rumor has it that they have been given special dispensation to dispose of their huge stock pile of OA crystals. When they run out then not more on p 65.

 

[chrismcd]

They do it better in the US of A

The basic problem is that the UK and the EU tend to be sympathetic to professional cartels - Pharmaceutical manufacturers, Pharmacists and to a lesser extent Vets. Have you tried to buy vitamins cheaply in France or Italy?

The comment about the Irish generic manufacturer earlier in the thread is typical.

The justification we are given for the situation over Oxalic acid is that all treatments for food producing animals must be closely controlled. In all fairness to the FSA they are bonkers about food contamination and adulteration - so we are not under any threat from imported Chinese honey anytime soon as I understand it (Non Tarif Barriers is the technical jargon and I have still not seen any French liquid milk on sale in the UK!).

In the US there is at least an attempt not to rip people off over generic products. The example I am familiar with is Iodine teat dips. Iodine has been used as a topical disinfectant for many years. AFAIK if a manufacturer applies for a licence using recognised ingredients they will not need to do any expensive trials work since it is simply duplicating existing work.

Also the FDA has GRAS (Generaly Regarded As Safe) - since Oxalic acid is a natural constituent of honey I gather it comes under the GRAS rules.

So, as I understand it, any veterinary product manufacturer in the US who wanted to sell an Oxalic based product would simply apply to register a product based on a recipe proven to work by one of the US Agricultural Universities - simples

I am no longer up to date so perhaps someone who is still in the Animal Health Industry could update my comments?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Maybe there should be a way to make the BBKA membership card a licence for this product.

Don't encourage officialdom. Taken far enough down that road we'll need to go on training courses to obtain licences to buy table salt or rock salt in case we want to make Chlorine gas.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

The basic problem is that the UK and the EU tend to be sympathetic to professional cartels - Pharmaceutical manufacturers, Pharmacists and to a lesser extent Vets. Have you tried to buy vitamins cheaply in France or Italy?

The comment about the Irish generic manufacturer earlier in the thread is typical.

The justification we are given for the situation over Oxalic acid is that all treatments for food producing animals must be closely controlled. In all fairness to the FSA they are bonkers about food contamination and adulteration - so we are not under any threat from imported Chinese honey anytime soon as I understand it (Non Tarif Barriers is the technical jargon and I have still not seen any French liquid milk on sale in the UK!).

In the US there is at least an attempt not to rip people off over generic products. The example I am familiar with is Iodine teat dips. Iodine has been used as a topical disinfectant for many years. AFAIK if a manufacturer applies for a licence using recognised ingredients they will not need to do any expensive trials work since it is simply duplicating existing work.

Also the FDA has GRAS (Generaly Regarded As Safe) - since Oxalic acid is a natural constituent of honey I gather it comes under the GRAS rules.

So, as I understand it, any veterinary product manufacturer in the US who wanted to sell an Oxalic based product would simply apply to register a product based on a recipe proven to work by one of the US Agricultural Universities - simples

I am no longer up to date so perhaps someone who is still in the Animal Health Industry could update my comments?

Thanks for posting that. Now one for Simoncav - perhaps our BBKA can usefully get involved. The publicity department run a campaign to educate the public about the need to "save the bees from mites" and demand the government agencies go back to the drawing board?

 

[For want of a better word]

Thanks for posting that. Now one for Simoncav - perhaps our BBKA can usefully get involved. The publicity department run a campaign to educate the public about the need to "save the bees from mites" and demand the government agencies go back to the drawing board?

Perhaps a subsidy of say £30 per colony to cover approved treatments overseen by the SBI?
Would encourage the many 1 to 2 hive beekeepers to register on BEEBASE and to have their colonies inspected for foulbroods.

Would need another few hundred SBIs..... and due to the difficulty in finding suitable candidates for the last lot of placements here in the SW Region......

Not going to hold my breath.......

However IF beekeepers made this punt towards Government.. I bet the outlandish overpricing of " The approved product" would tumble!

Yeghes da

 

[birdsandbees]

However IF beekeepers made this punt towards Government.. I bet the outlandish overpricing of " The approved product" would tumble!

Yeghes da

What about starting a petition?

https://www.change.org/start-a-peti...FgpKpcz_j-0PXTwVuztoc-t7svvOBMEn67BoCIVnw_wcB

 

[For want of a better word]

What about starting a petition?

https://www.change.org/start-a-peti...FgpKpcz_j-0PXTwVuztoc-t7svvOBMEn67BoCIVnw_wcB

What an excellent idea!

Yeghes da

 

[birdsandbees]

would require setting up by someone with far more knowledge that I though to ensure it's correctly worded, I'd be happy to spread it as much as I can through pages on Book Face if it was set up.