Holiday and swarm control?

[Norvic_chris]

Quick question: I'm off on holiday for 2 weeks on Friday. I inspected yesterday and found a charged Q cell (not yet sealed) in my largest colony (3 supers).

I left the cell and closed up to think about next steps -- normally I would do an artificial swarm but I won't be about to knock down any excess additional Q cells they make (and they always do!) or to move the hive after 7 days.

If I do something tonight (although it's raining here at the moment), that will leave about 19 days before I return.

Any ideas how best course of action? I don't want to lose too many bees before winter and I don't particularly want it swarming while non-bee-keepers are looking after my home... Thank you!

 

[Davelin]

Getting late in year to doA/S and get queen mated anyway. Where was the cell? May have been supersedure, but again late in year.

I would pull down cell and cross fingers, late in year for swarming as well.

 

[Putnamsmif]

I don't have enough experience to help you out on what to do, but just to let you know my bees are on the Norf/ Cambs border and there were 2 swarms seen in the village last week.

 

[Norvic_chris]

Getting late in year to doA/S and get queen mated anyway. Where was the cell? May have been supersedure, but again late in year.

I would pull down cell and cross fingers, late in year for swarming as well.

Hi -- yes, it is getting a bit late -- the cell was on the edge of the frame. Over the past 3 years, we've had swarms as late as the end of August here, so I can never be too careful!!

 

[oliver90owner]

It is only early August, so loads of time for supercedure. And for swarming, too, but not
such a good scenario.
If only four days to do something, get the colony weakened by splitting or A/S soonest and check for more queen cells, at the latest possible time, in both. Even shift the hive across then as it will reduce the number of flying bees a bit - the best you can do.

RAB

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

To all of that (must be the male menopause!) four days should be OK for knocking any emergency cells off. The older one should deal with the others anyway when she emerges.
With only one QC in there it sounds very much like supersedure regardless of it's position (all my swarm cells this year were at the top of the frames so you can't always go by the book)

 

[Outlander]

My vote os on superseded. As for being late I don't think so . My best Q this year was from a late August supercedure last year. May be just lucky but she a goodon.

 

[tawny]

I had a similar situation about 7 weeks ago. I did an artifiicial swarm and took two further frames with brood and QC's on and put in a NUC, came back from holiday, reunited two. In the meantime some bees from somewhere had swarmed at set up home in an empty hive, drawing out comb from the crown board. Settled these in, kept the comb which I melted on to a top bar. 3 days later a swarm of bees down the bottom of the garden got housed in my TBH.

So was this a successful approach? Well I am sure at least one if not the two swarms were not from my hives as mine are dark and these two are lighter. I do keep my apidea down the bottom of the garden by a couple of bait boxes, just wondered if this influenced things?

 

[Finman]

My vote os on superseded.

I bet that too. If the hive is going to swarm, it makes 10-15 queen cells.

Supercede cells are about 5 pieces.

 

[Finman]

I had a similar situation about 7 weeks ago.?

It was normal swarming time then

 

[Norvic_chris]

Thank you all, I'm very grateful for the advice.

So, it's probably a time for a bit of luck! Either I do an A/S (not today as it's pouring with rain!) as a precaution, knock down all emergency cells on the morning of departure and recombine when I get back (if all goes well).

OR: I hope that it's supersedure, make sure they've got enough space and keep my fingers crossed!

OR: I hope it's supersedure but do an A/S anyway to reduce the numbers in the hive and improve the chances either way (or is that just daft?!!).

Although I did a very thorough inspection, there's always the chance I missed a Q cell but if Finman is correct and there are around 5 for supersedure then that's not a problem (and when this bunch swarmed in April/May, they made at least 10 cells before I reduced them). So perhaps I can just casually leave well alone and go on holiday with no worries (but with a bait hive nearby just in case...).

Choices, choices...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

(and when this bunch swarmed in April/May, they made at least 10 cells before I reduced them).

When you say they swarmed in April/May. Did they actually go (old queen and half the hive away leaving QC's) and this is the new queen we're talking about or is this the original hive which you have already A/S'ed therefore this is still the old queen and the other half (with the new queen) is elsewhere?

If the answer to the above was 'yes, it is the original colony which I A/S'ed and she is the original queen' I'd say yes, relax (a bit). In their natural state bees will swarm and after the old queen and her retinue find a new home and get settled in, they will often supersede her in good time to get her successor mated and laying before settling down to overwinter.
If the answer is no, this is the new queen - i still reckon it's supersedure

 

[Norvic_chris]

When you say they swarmed in April/May. Did they actually go (old queen and half the hive away leaving QC's) and this is the new queen we're talking about or is this the original hive which you have already A/S'ed therefore this is still the old queen and the other half (with the new queen) is elsewhere?

If the answer to the above was 'yes, it is the original colony which I A/S'ed and she is the original queen' I'd say yes, relax (a bit). In their natural state bees will swarm and after the old queen and her retinue find a new home and get settled in, they will often supersede her in good time to get her successor mated and laying before settling down to overwinter.
If the answer is no, this is the new queen - i still reckon it's supersedure

Aha! Yes, it's the old queen from my original A/S (the large number of Q cells was in the other 'half' of the A/S). I don't know how old she is -- she was new to me last summer from a swarm that 'arrived' and I presumed she was young as she was unmarked but she may have been a year old already from someone else's hive. (Because of the poor summer, all my colonies are descended from this one.) I will take your advice and relax (a bit) -- although I'm now worried that because I shook the frame to search for Q cells I may have damaged the rightful heir -- mind you, it's not yet sealed so perhaps that's not such a problem. And, if the worst happens and they swarm, I'll be on holiday and none the wiser until I get back -- why worry?!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

although I'm now worried that because I shook the frame to search for Q cells I may have damaged the rightful heir

I certainly wouldn't worry about that - with the old queen still in there and laying if it's suspect they'll just build another one (you can relax even further now! enjoy your hols!

 

[Norvic_chris]

Thank you -- I feel much better!! Now, what to take to read, bee books or....?

 

[tawny]

It was swarming time then

Yes, but my reference was that I was going on holiday...

 

[Norvic_chris]

And now what...?

Just resurrecting this thread as now I've come back from hols and inspected, the old queen is still in residence (so not swarmed) but the odd thing is that the original queen cell (supersedure?) has been torn down (so much so that I wouldn't have been able to find it if I hadn't marked the frame). So I presume I damaged that when I shook the frame on my original inspection.

So, then I found 2 other QCs that weren't there before (there have been 22 days between inspections, so plenty of time!) -- one that looks to have been used and exited properly (so a new queen) and the other that looks to have been chewed from the side (so possibly killed off by newly emerged queen?). Scene set for nice supersedure. BUT interestingly, the brood has shrunk from 6 frames (BIAS) to just one -- all the remaining frames look cleaned up for egg-laying but not a single egg throughout.

OK, so the virgin queen (which I didn't see -- presuming she's there!) won't have mated yet but why is the old queen not laying at all? I realise that the supersedure means that she's probably weakening and her lay-rate would have reduced but this seems drastic, so does anyone think there is something to worry about?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Keep us posted; this is fascinating. You might want to try and find the virgin in case thee has been a cast swarm. Unlikely, I accept but not a good situation so worth looking so as to formulate a Plan B.

 

[Norvic_chris]

I will have another look and see what I can find (although I suspect the least disturbance, the better)! One of the problems at this late stage of the year I suspect will be getting a successful mating and time for enough brood to come through the winter if the old queen has stopped laying before the new one starts (if she exists). Couple this with the need to treat for varroa, which some say can reduce or halt laying for a bit, and I could be in real trouble with what until 3 weeks ago was my strongest hive.

Another thought occurred to me -- that the old queen has stopped laying in anticipation of swarming and just hasn't yet gone. Is this likely?

 

[Nige.Coll]

have you seen the old queen?
if she is going to swarm she will look thin as they stop feeding her so she can fly.