Hive heating temperatures

[joe9052]

Having read this thread over the last few days, I am ready to experiment. I have made a 12W 12v heater from two pieces of strip board and a 0-40C thermostat. Having tested it in the 'lab', I now have to complete the wiring, and install into one of my hives. I am expecting the large 80AHr battery to last a few days allowing the bees to break cluster and relocate onto new feeding areas. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[tidymeup]

Just a quick update now and it appears that the bees will now break cluster to move to the fondant and pollen patty that they now have. Although the weather is warmer it's still as low as -6 at night, the bees still feed at this temperature to.

Previously they were clustered far away from any food source and unable to reach it. hopefully I caught them all in time as I knew when adding fondant by the size of the clusters that I would loose most of them.

I still might but hopefully I have tried my very best.

Also from what i can tell the heater below looks to be the best method, otherwise you simply get a cluster of bees in the eke that i am using to feed.

hope this helps some others.

Hopefully we have a better year this time and feeding isn't as much of an issue as it was for me last year. and perhaps I have learnt something about keeping so more nucs over winter.

 

[Dishmop]

So,

warm the bees up to encourage brood rearing?



My obs hive must be warmer than the bees in outdoor hive but no brood in it yet.

Previously they were clustered far away from any food source and unable to reach it.

Why were they unable to reach it? They dont cluster on it.

 

[user 6228]

Tricky one.

...
According to Seeley, the bees minimum rate of food consumption is at around 10C. Above that it increases very quickly (as the bees become more active).
Below that, it only increases slowly, as the bees cluster tighter to minimise the additional heat loss to the cooler environment.
Hence, for minimising stores usage, err below 10 rather than above.

1...!

Thats only part of the story ... that graph only goes up to 25C. Above 25C the metabolic rate continues to fall. The paper Seeley draws his info from a paper was interested in the difference between colonies and individual bees. Above 25C the metabolic rate merges with that of individual bees.

In an insulated enivronment the bees will be able to regulate their heat output. Having observed the same colony change the interior floor temp from 18C to 4C then back to 18C in be relatively unchanging below zero external temps I can say that bees in well insulated habitats are "complex"

(METABOLIC ENERGY OF INTACT HONEY BEE COLONIES* E Southwick
EDWARD E. SOUTHWICK).

 

[tidymeup]

Why were they unable to reach it? They dont cluster on it.

Basically to small of a cluster for them to actually break and feed often enough to stay alive. I already lost two because of this. They have fondant and were taking it but died with their heads in the cells weeks later.

 

[itma]

No, its not in {Seeley's} books.
From other research, which I encountered indirectly.
See http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=279528#post279528 ADDED - and the discussion following it
The document linked (with the ruddy graph) is no longer on line. And though I was sure I had a copy, it seems I don't. Sorry.

Turns out it *IS* online, just buried in the reorganised website.

Here's the link http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf

As DerekM indicates, things get more complicated above 20C ...
... HOWEVER my point was that heating the hive above 10C (but below 20C a likely range for UK Spring hive heating) actually has the perverse effect of increasing the rate of stores consumption.
This is because the bees are more active and mobile. Which in turn does reduce the risk of "isolation starvation".
I'm sure that heating would also promote brood rearing (assuming adequate carbs, protein, water, etc) with a further increase in metabolic rate.

 

[user 6228]

Turns out it *IS* online, just buried in the reorganised website.

Here's the link http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf

As DerekM indicates, things get more complicated above 20C ...
... HOWEVER my point was that heating the hive above 10C (but below 20C a likely range for UK Spring hive heating) actually has the perverse effect of increasing the rate of stores consumption.
This is because the bees are more active and mobile. Which in turn does reduce the risk of "isolation starvation".
I'm sure that heating would also promote brood rearing (assuming adequate carbs, protein, water, etc) with a further increase in metabolic rate.

There are a number of things in that CAPAbees document that clash with research and experience in Europe and indeed basic physics. Above all remember bees survive in the wild in the Canada in the decidous forest areas.

 

[oliver90owner]

While this thread is a classic 'just try something and see' without first doing some decent research, the OP may have reduced winter losses. Finman's advice (among others) should have been sought before engaging on this project!

Now to thunderbird. An 80 amp hour battery is not far off useless or it may well soon be - firstly that is not a big battery, secondly I am thinking automotive type flooded lead acid. I may be wrong but if it is an automotive type battery the depth of discharge should be kept to about 10% or less and certainly not more than 20%. That would mean actual available usable storage is about 10 amp hours and his 12W heater will draw 1A...

Failure to observe this limit is likely to result in a dead battery in quite a short time frame. OK for a trial maybe, but potentially very expensive as a routine method; the battery needs recharging every day, I would think in near freezing weather.

 

[Hivemaker.]

the battery needs recharging every day, I would think in near freezing weather.

Or perhaps easier to just leave it in a vehicle, which is running all the time, with leads going to the heater unit.

 

[Dishmop]

I agree with Rab regarding the battery.

An 80 amp hour is not big.. A 110 leisure battery would be better than a starter battery, but might I suggest that you use 12v car bulbs as heaters,, or an inverter to convert 12v to 240 and use a 204v bulb. Do they still make those red low wattage bulbs that were fitted in bed warmers?

 

[madasafish]

Macclesfield - where Tidymeup lives - is not far from where we live (15miles) and has a similar climate

Lots of insulation works for me and we are higher up...

 

[itma]

There are a number of things in that CAPAbees document that clash with research and experience in Europe and indeed basic physics. Above all remember bees survive in the wild in the Canada in the decidous forest areas.

I'm not promoting that document in its entirety. There is stuff in there that I too have questioned in the past.

Simply, I was challenged as to the source of my ~10C minimum statement, and having reported that it had disappeared, I sought to redress matters after I tripped over its new web address.

 

[Madge]

And thanks for providing it, Itma.
Kitta

 

[user 6228]

I'm not promoting that document in its entirety. There is stuff in there that I too have questioned in the past.

Simply, I was challenged as to the source of my ~10C minimum statement, and having reported that it had disappeared, I sought to redress matters after I tripped over its new web address.

No problems, its just one the things i'm often asked about(even got a powerpoint on it), so i have a proverbial in the bonnent about it. I just didnt want others to seize all of it as gospel.

 

[tidymeup]

Macclesfield - where Tidymeup lives - is not far from where we live (15miles) and has a similar climate

Lots of insulation works for me and we are higher up...

I say Macclesfield so I give a brief location but I myself am much higher up.

I spent allot of time reading and doing quite a bit of research read through allot of conversations with finman on other forums.

I was sure in what I was doing would would stop the problem with isolation starvation. I also needed to feed them so decided a pollen patty would give me the best of both.

The temperatures quoted are in the eke when it will be at its highest. Further down inside the hive temperatures should be quite a bit cooler.

 

[Finman]

.
When I started my hive heating 10 y ago, my beeyad was ruined.
2/3 hives was dead and the rest were what they were.

At autumn i had 18 hives and in April I had 3 dwarf colonies and 3 normal hives. Reason was apistan resistant mites and very dry previous summer.

I had know hive heating 40 years but now it was timeto act - finally.

I went to petty chop and I bought different kind of heaters what they had and tried them. I have no calculations.

I had 3w, 7w, 15w and 20w. I saw next day what works.

20 w was too ht

3w worked in one frame colony and so on...


I think heating this way:

Basic heat production of hive is 3-6 W. the heater gives basic heat to the hive and it helps bees to keep their own temperature with less work.

Later it helps a cluster to make larger brood ball and adds production of workers.

.during 10 years I have seen what it makes. I have learned what warm hive means to the colony build up.

Like dekemn uses to say, Finman is AGAIN wrong. But I have afford to be wrong if I get 150 kg honey from best hives. i hunt for big yields and dekemn hunts for beeks who are wrong.
Heh heh
.

 

[johnfly]

.
When I started my hive heating 10 y ago, my beeyad was ruined.
2/3 hives was dead and the rest were what they were.

At autumn i had 18 hives and in April I had 3 dwarf colonies and 3 normal hives. Reason was apistan resistant mites and very dry previous summer.

I had know hive heating 40 years but now it was timeto act - finally.

I went to petty chop and I bought different kind of heaters what they had and tried them. I have no calculations.

I had 3w, 7w, 15w and 20w. I saw next day what works.

20 w was too ht

3w worked in one frame colony and so on...


I think heating this way:

Basic heat production of hive is 3-6 W. the heater gives basic heat to the hive and it helps bees to keep their own temperature with less work.

Later it helps a cluster to make larger brood ball and adds production of workers.

.during 10 years I have seen what it makes. I have learned what warm hive means to the colony build up.

Like dekemn uses to say, Finman is AGAIN wrong. But I have afford to be wrong if I get 150 kg honey from best hives. i hunt for big yields and dekemn hunts for beeks who are wrong.
Heh heh
.

Finman, again you are right, i have used heating in a couple of hives for the past seven years, trial and error until i got it right for my hives ending up with a 7 or 13 watt or 3 watt in nucs heating pad placed inside of a plastic bag onto open mesh floor with mite board in closed position, foam in entrance with 15mm opening either end, crown board removed sheet of plastic in place of crown board and insulated eke with insulation on top, eke is there from the start if they need fondant just slide under plastic

 

[Finman]

.
The biggest help in small hives is that when I give frame of emerging bees to a 2 frame nuc, brood stays alive. They all emerge. If you give a frame to a small colony, they cannot keep all alive.


But like I lost yesterday 2 hives because of nosema, heating cannot save such hives.
Another hive has still a queen and handfull of bees, but I am not going to sacrifice worker bees any more to save the queen. Queen may be sick too.

.

 

[user 6228]

.
When I started my hive heating 10 y ago, my beeyad was ruined.
2/3 hives was dead and the rest were what they were.

At autumn i had 18 hives and in April I had 3 dwarf colonies and 3 normal hives. Reason was apistan resistant mites and very dry previous summer.

I had know hive heating 40 years but now it was timeto act - finally.

I went to petty chop and I bought different kind of heaters what they had and tried them. I have no calculations.

I had 3w, 7w, 15w and 20w. I saw next day what works.

20 w was too ht

3w worked in one frame colony and so on...


I think heating this way:

Basic heat production of hive is 3-6 W. the heater gives basic heat to the hive and it helps bees to keep their own temperature with less work.

Later it helps a cluster to make larger brood ball and adds production of workers.

.during 10 years I have seen what it makes. I have learned what warm hive means to the colony build up.

Like dekemn uses to say, Finman is AGAIN wrong. But I have afford to be wrong if I get 150 kg honey from best hives. i hunt for big yields and dekemn hunts for beeks who are wrong.
Heh heh
.

Argumentum ad hominem plus
Argumentum ad Consequentiam not forgeting
Argumentum ad Verecundiam

 

[Finman]

Argumentum ad hominem plus
Argumentum ad Consequentiam not forgeting
Argumentum ad Verecundiam

pimpula pampula paimenpoika
aja sinä karjasi kottii
pompi itte kiviä myöten
ettet puttoo jokkee