Heading into my first winter!

[CrossvilleBees]

Hello all and thanks for accepting me into your forum. This is my first season keeping bees and I have three colonies in 14x12 Nationals, a mixture of new and inherited kit. The summer was fun and eventful and I managed to muddle through with less hands on support than expected given that this damn virus prevented my local association running any meets but things are pretty ok going into winter I think. I have three very different behaving colonies, one mild mannered and very yellow which I got as a pack from Italy....one from a nuc colony headed by a buckfast queen that has always seemed very active...and one large swarm of local ladies that just turned up one day and moved into some old boxes stacked against a wall. Winter is scary...I really have no idea how to heft a hive given they are all mixed woods and set ups, and they haven't clustered yet so I haven't given them their winter treatment yet.. it's turned cold now though so plan that for next few days.

 

[pargyle]

Welcome ... plenty on here to keep you occupied over the winter and to perhaps gain some knowledge that you won't often find in the bee books.

If your 14 x 12's were well stocked in the autumn (Did you leave them their own honey in the brood boxes or feed them well ?) then they should be fine until it's warm enough in spring to have a look.

Hefting is easy ... put a finger under the bottom edge of the floor and if you can lift the hive with one finger ... they are light and will need feeding, if it needs two fingers they should be OK but be prepared to add some fondant before winter is out. If it needs three fingers and it feels nailed down ... should be fine until spring. Fondant is your friend in winter if they need feeding.

You can, of course, weigh them with a set of luggage scales .. hook under one side, check the weight, hook under the other and add the two weights together. Record the weights and weigh weekly and you will see how much each colony is consuming each week ... will give you an idea for next year as well.

You have a nice deep roof on that hive - hopefully you won't have any holes left open in the crownboard ? Also, it's a really good idea to have a slab of insulation material (Kingspan or Celotex) under the roof and above the crown board to keep them nice and toasty over winter. Ignore the people who tell you they need to be kept cold and ventilated ...

Did you treat them for varroa in the autumn ? What are you planning to treat them with now ?

Good luck getting them through winter - must have been a baptism of fire starting beekeeping with three colonies and little hands on help available.

 

[madasafish]

 

[Curly green finger's]

I think pargyle pretty much said it all really.
I used luggage scales over the first few years and hefted at the same time.
Im still using scales but Its easy enough to heft using the three finger rule very easy to do. Hefting hive although the gentleman in the video just lifts the back of the hive up, imo it's better to use the three finger rule.
Good luck
Mark

 

[CrossvilleBees]

Thanks for the welcome and advice on hefting...ill give it a go!
I didn't take any honey off of them at all this year, although to be honest they didn't out any up in the supers to take and I had in my mind that the stuff in the brrod box was theirs to keep. I did feed syrup until I was actually a bit worried because everywhere got backfilled with syrup...but I was told that I should have stopped my inspections earlier and wouldn't have even known that so not to worry.
I have fondant on standby too.
I like tinkering and because was worried about the holes in their cb's, I changed them to clear boards with an eke one-side and bee space the other. They are bee space down with a block of insulation in the eke side currently.
Their autumn treatment was MAQ strips in two and Apiguard in the other (I got stressed about the time Apiguard takes) and I plan to trickle OA as soon as they cluster. It seems from your advice I've covered most bases so fingers crossed!!

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for the welcome and advice on hefting...ill give it a go!
I didn't take any honey off of them at all this year, although to be honest they didn't out any up in the supers to take and I had in my mind that the stuff in the brrod box was theirs to keep. I did feed syrup until I was actually a bit worried because everywhere got backfilled with syrup...but I was told that I should have stopped my inspections earlier and wouldn't have even known that so not to worry.
I have fondant on standby too.
I like tinkering and because was worried about the holes in their cb's, I changed them to clear boards with an eke one-side and bee space the other. They are bee space down with a block of insulation in the eke side currently.
Their autumn treatment was MAQ strips in two and Apiguard in the other (I got stressed about the time Apiguard takes) and I plan to trickle OA as soon as they cluster. It seems from your advice I've covered most bases so fingers crossed!!

Apiguard is a thymol treatment and needs temperatures above 15 degrees in order tor the thymol to evaporate and be effective .. if you treated late in autumn then it may have been a bit late. MAQS is formic acid and is more temperature tolerant, works down to 10 degrees. Both work and should have reduced the mite load significantly if you used them correctly. Whether you need a trickle treatment with OA ... I have my doubts.

Clear crownboards and insulation is good. I wouldn't worry too much about being criticised for a late inspection .. at least you know they were stuffed with supplies ... I doubt you will need your fondant unless spring is very late but it keeps so no problem if you don't use it. In spring with a 14 x 12 full of stores you may well have to remove frames of stores to give the queen room to lay so be aware.

 

[CrossvilleBees]

Apiguard is a thymol treatment and needs temperatures above 15 degrees in order tor the thymol to evaporate and be effective .. if you treated late in autumn then it may have been a bit late. MAQS is formic acid and is more temperature tolerant, works down to 10 degrees. Both work and should have reduced the mite load significantly if you used them correctly. Whether you need a trickle treatment with OA ... I have my doubts.

Clear crownboards and insulation is good. I wouldn't worry too much about being criticised for a late inspection .. at least you know they were stuffed with supplies ... I doubt you will need your fondant unless spring is very late but it keeps so no problem if you don't use it. In spring with a 14 x 12 full of stores you may well have to remove frames of stores to give the queen room to lay so be aware.

....if I replace frames it will have to be with foundation, I don't have drawn comb. I assume that's ok? Thanks again for the advice.

 

[Erichalfbee]

....if I replace frames it will have to be with foundation, I don't have drawn comb. I assume that's ok? Thanks again for the advice.

Better spinning a food frame out and replacing it

 

[pargyle]

Better spinning a food frame out and replacing it

I'd agree but 14 x 12 frames and a new beekeeper ? Unless they have access to a big extractor might not be possible .... they could uncap a frame and wash it out then use the washings as an early feed give them back the washed out frame for laying space .. and put a frame of foudation next to the brood frames once there is a laying pattern with the feeder on and the washings on top and they should draw out the comb. Save the other frames of stores for the inevitable splits or artificial swarms ... gradually move any excess stores out of the hive by adding frames of foundation as they get drawn. Frames of stores and drawn comb are a really great commodity in keeping bees ...

I usually have to take out two or even three frames of capped stores out of my 14 x 12's in spring ... admittedly, they are poly hives with 100mm insulation on top of the CB.

It's always a balancing act in spring ... once a queen really starts to lay she needs space but if she starts early they need the stores to feed and survive if spring weather stops them foraging. It's more evident, I think, down here in the South where we are seeing earlier and warmer springs but also more wet days ...

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'd agree but 14 x 12 frames and a new beekeeper ? Unless they have access to a big extractor might not be possible .... they could uncap a frame and wash it out then use the washings as an early feed give them back the washed out frame for laying space .. and put a frame of foudation next to the brood frames once there is a laying pattern with the feeder on and the washings on top and they should draw out the comb. Save the other frames of stores for the inevitable splits or artificial swarms ... gradually move any excess stores out of the hive by adding frames of foundation as they get drawn. Frames of stores and drawn comb are a really great commodity in keeping bees ...

I usually have to take out two or even three frames of capped stores out of my 14 x 12's in spring ... admittedly, they are poly hives with 100mm insulation on top of the CB.

It's always a balancing act in spring ... once a queen really starts to lay she needs space but if she starts early they need the stores to feed and survive if spring weather stops them foraging. It's more evident, I think, down here in the South where we are seeing earlier and warmer springs but also more wet days ...

Good point but maybe they have a friend with an extractor they could borrow. Do you think foundation is a good idea?

 

[pargyle]

Good point but maybe they have a friend with an extractor they could borrow. Do you think foundation is a good idea?

No ... I'm foundationless I'd give them an empty frame !!

But ... if the queen needs space to lay .. and they have no drawn comb and no means to extract then the choice is - uncap and wash a couple of frames out and give them those back or .. wash one out and feed the washings back and give them a frame of foundation to play with as well. The other frame of capped honey goes in to storage .. if they don't build out the foundation frame and still need space then they can always wash out the frame in store and substitute that for another frame of stores taken out ...

Just trying to save washing out or spinning out any more frames than necessary ...

 

[drex]

@ crossville. A note about timing. They will not draw foundation until they need it in spring. OA treatment is better done when brood less, which is more likely to occur before the solstice and after a couple of weeks of low temps. However if vaped it is better given and better dispersed if given on a milder day when they are likely to break cluster. This does not matter so much when trickling as you intend. OA does not penetrate sealed brood and the trickle kills open brood.

 

[pargyle]

@ crossville. A note about timing. They will not draw foundation until they need it in spring. OA treatment is better done when brood less, which is more likely to occur before the solstice and after a couple of weeks of low temps. However if vaped it is better given and better dispersed if given on a milder day when they are likely to break cluster. This does not matter so much when trickling as you intend. OA does not penetrate sealed brood and the trickle kills open brood.

Agree ... as the OP had treated in Autumn I would be inclined to give the OA trickle a miss ... it's a fairly invasive treatment IMO.

 

[CrossvilleBees]

Good point but maybe they have a friend with an extractor they could borrow.

...I was thinking the same thing, perhaps my local association. If not I'll uncap and wash as proposed. I assume washing a frame is what it sounds like?

 

[CrossvilleBees]

Agree ... as the OP had treated in Autumn I would be inclined to give the OA trickle a miss ... it's a fairly invasive treatment IMO.

Would you suggest missing the winter treatment in favour of a spring treatment then? Is their a 'best' time to treat in spring?

 

[CrossvilleBees]

@ crossville. A note about timing. They will not draw foundation until they need it in spring. OA treatment is better done when brood less, which is more likely to occur before the solstice and after a couple of weeks of low temps.

We don't tend to get a couple of weeks of low temps before the solstice...that's what's been puzzling me so much about timing the treatment.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

We don't tend to get a couple of weeks of low temps before the solstice...that's what's been puzzling me so much about timing the treatment.

You don't particularly need cold weather, another misconception I'm afraid, the best time to catch them broodless is early December. after the solstice, regardless of weather, they will start brooding again

 

[pargyle]

...I was thinking the same thing, perhaps my local association. If not I'll uncap and wash as proposed. I assume washing a frame is what it sounds like?

Yes ... you just cut the cappings off .. some warm water (not a huge amount needed and not hot - just warm) - I've used a soft paintbrush in the past to agitate the cells to help the honey wash out. You don't need to get every last drop out the bees will clean the corners before the queen lays. Save the washings with the honey and feed it back to them - if they have a surplus of food and they need the comb they will use it to build out any foundation - the alternative it to make a litre of two of mead !

 

[pargyle]

Would you suggest missing the winter treatment in favour of a spring treatment then? Is their a 'best' time to treat in spring?

Well ... you are asking the wrong person as I don't treat my bees for varroa ... although I am not averse to treating the bees and I do treat some other hives I look after. My view is that you should treat for varroa if the colony needs it ... I do sugar rolls and check what the mite load is - it's a quick, easy, reasonably accurate and non-invasive way of checking what the varroa levels are. If they are infested then clearly you should consider treatment in spring ... ideally before they really start building up ... there's no fixed dates in beekeeping, a lot depends on your location, the nature of the colony, the weather, the forage available. You need to try and think and see what is happening and your manipulations (and treatments if necessary) should follow. Not, it's April 3rd I must do this ....

As for whether they need a treatment now - personally, I wouldn't - Trickling is a well recognised winter treatment but if you have treated them as you say in autumn they should not be heavily infested ... but you are taking advice from a low interference beekeeper so I'm sure there will be others who suggest you do ....

If you really feed they need treatment perhaps you could borrow an OA sublimator or even consider buying a pan type or a gas vap and treat them with OA by sublimation which is a much less invasive treatment and very effective at knocking mites down when they are largely broodless.

Sorry ... decisions decisions decisions .... get use to it, it never stops ! Neither does the spending !!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but you are taking advice from a low interference beekeeper so I'm sure there will be others who suggest you do ....

I wouldn't, there is a bit of an obsession with this winter treating lark. Winter treatment was first put forward as an alternative to the then ineffective (due to mite resistance) autumn treatments available when varroa first hit our shores, not as a supplementary - the only reason they recommended winter was to try and get a broodless period for the OA to work at its optimum as trickling should only be done once a year and it doesn't work on sealed brood and kills any unsealed.
I haven't bothered with a winter treatment for years, whether vaping or trickling unless I think that for some reason the autumn one wasn't fully effective.