Grafting reassurance sought

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I have grafted for several years with partial success. To be honest, most of my Qs are a hodge-podge of swarm cells, EQCs off test frames etc, with only occasional "managed" introductions. But I am gradually ironing out the kinks. eg I now get as many Apideas as I can (3) into my "incubator" to avoid the bees neglecting the cells. Seems successful so far.

So, to the questions. I grafted on Sunday 20th May at about 4pm and took newly-emerged larvae with eggs in the vicinity. So in theory, laid (D1) on 17 May, grafted, (D4) 20 May, sealed (D8) 24 May (not checked) [transferred from cell builder to Apideas 30 May, D14] and emerge (D16) on 1 June 4pm. I looked at midnight last night, 30May/1 June and everyone was out and about on D15 (plus or minus maybe 8 hours).

1) Is D15 emergence usual if kept warm? (Apideas were in incubator at 35C)
2) If, more likely, I grafted 2-day old larvae, will they be "scrub" queens) or is 2 days sort of OK?

 

[B+.]

I have grafted for several years with partial success. To be honest, most of my Qs are a hodge-podge of swarm cells, EQCs off test frames etc, with only occasional "managed" introductions. But I am gradually ironing out the kinks. eg I now get as many Apideas as I can (3) into my "incubator" to avoid the bees neglecting the cells. Seems successful so far.

So, to the questions. I grafted on Sunday 20th May at about 4pm and took newly-emerged larvae with eggs in the vicinity. So in theory, laid (D1) on 17 May, grafted, (D4) 20 May, sealed (D8) 24 May (not checked) [transferred from cell builder to Apideas 30 May, D14] and emerge (D16) on 1 June 4pm. I looked at midnight last night, 30May/1 June and everyone was out and about on D15 (plus or minus maybe 8 hours).

1) Is D15 emergence usual if kept warm? (Apideas were in incubator at 35C)
2) If, more likely, I grafted 2-day old larvae, will they be "scrub" queens) or is 2 days sort of OK?

I'm not sure why you're putting Apideas into an incubator. I've never heard of anyone doing this. Indeed, it is often highlighted that workers which can fly freely are less stressed so they nurture the cell better. Just put your cell in a Nicot cage in the incubator...this is how I do it (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3727)
I wouldn't be too concerned about the emergence of the queen so long as they emerge around the time you expect. The larvae may have been a little older/younger, so, I wouldn't worry about when they emerged.
I've attached a diagram from "Aufzucht und Verwendung von Koniginnen" that illustrates the effect of grafting larvae of different ages.

This video shows the age of larvae you should graft (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA604X8sc8I)

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Thanks B+: that is definitely the size of the larvae. And that diagram is very interesting. I use a shaved down 000 paint brush. I'll try and post pics of the resultant queens when I see them.

The Apideas went in the incubator this time because I got fed up with the bees neglecting them. I was probably doing something wrong but I had several cells get chilled. Not this way! They'll go onto the stand at dusk tonight.

 

[Eyeman]

Sound like your grafting the right age larvae. I look for larvae before they have adopted the 'c' shape, ie. as straight as possible. Those near eggs are likely to fit the bill. I lift the larvae our with a 'modified dental pick'.
Can you post a pic of your 'tool'

 

[Lancs Lad]

TryToLetThemBee
The problem could be when you setup the Apideas, are you shaking nurse bees off frames with larvae to fill the Apideas ,rather than filling them with foragers.

 

[B+.]

Can you post a pic of your 'tool'

steady on.

 

[yeogi75]

that Devan raun is one of the best ive seen from over the pond

 

[Beefriendly]

that Devan raun is one of the best ive seen from over the pond

We talking beekeeping or "tools" here?

 

[B+.]

Thanks B+: that is definitely the size of the larvae. And that diagram is very interesting. I use a shaved down 000 paint brush. I'll try and post pics of the resultant queens when I see them.

The Apideas went in the incubator this time because I got fed up with the bees neglecting them. I was probably doing something wrong but I had several cells get chilled. Not this way! They'll go onto the stand at dusk tonight.

I agree with Lancs Lad. It sounds like you are stocking your mating nuc with bees that are too old (foragers). when you shake the frame into the box/bucket, allow the flyers to return to the hive. The ones that remain will be bees that haven't flown yet.
Another tip you might try is to allow the queen to emerge in the incubator in a Nicot cage. That way, you can introduce a live queen rather than a cell. That way, you'll not have any trouble with cells getting chilled. If you're concerned about a virgin queen being killed on introduction, you can try dunking her in water/honey to slow her down first.
I usually just lay the cage on the top of the nuc and watch how the bees behave. If they're not aggressive, I open the nicot cage and let her wander down between the frames herself.

 

[yeogi75]

both have you seen his tool belt

 

[SDM]

Stock your mating nucs from the supers, there's always plenty of young bees there. Give the frame a tap before you shake into a bucket. The tap is enough to put flying bees up into the air.

 

[masterBK]

I have probably mentioned this before but I stock Apideas from the bees in demaree tops (the day after carrying out a shake down the demaree). Shaking from frames out of supers can produce very sticky bees

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

This is the sort of size I am getting.

Just under 48 hours after emergence.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

And here, as promised, are some pics of the sort of larvae I am grafting, along with an egg for comparison and my tool (roughly half a 000 brush). I can’t get much younger can I?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[B+.]

And here, as promised, are some pics of the sort of larvae I am grafting,

They're fine.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

They're fine.

Thanks, @B+


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[B+.]

Thanks, @B+

You're welcome.

You might find this time-lapse video useful to help you identify the age (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuvhUrP-eYs&list=LLIsQ_z2syxMF7feqmNm415w) but I don't think your problem was the age of the larvae you grafted. More likely, the workers in the Apidea were too old (although I can't be sure without seeing for myself)

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

You're welcome.

You might find this time-lapse video useful to help you identify the age (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuvhUrP-eYs&list=LLIsQ_z2syxMF7feqmNm415w) but I don't think your problem was the age of the larvae you grafted. More likely, the workers in the Apidea were too old (although I can't be sure without seeing for myself)

The thread sort of drifted without me; for sure I have had issues with the age of bees in Apideas, and there are some good suggestions here. Tops of (my many) Demarees is in pole position there.

But the original post was looking for reassurance in light of D15 emergence. If I am getting the right-age larvae, I am reassured but baffled; will just have to see how the resulting Qs work out. Thanks for the support and suggestions, everyone, esp. @B+.

 

[B+.]

the original post was looking for reassurance in light of D15 emergence. If I am getting the right-age larvae, I am reassured but baffled; will just have to see how the resulting Qs work out.

There is an evolutionary advantage to queens that emerge before others (used by Africanised queens to dominate European colonies), but, that's not going to be your problem.
The other thing that might have some bearing is temperature. I have my incubator set at 35 degrees C and 50% RH (the books all recommend 50-70% humidity). Now, if you incubate the Apidea, you may find the queens emerge a little earlier. However, that is not a practice that I would recommend because of the stress it places on the workers. The recommendation from the manufacturers of the Apidea (from memory) is that they are kept in a cool, dark place for the first 3 days to allow them to develop into a family unit and start to draw comb on the foundation. Did you do that first?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

There is an evolutionary advantage to queens that emerge before others (used by Africanised queens to dominate European colonies), but, that's not going to be your problem.
The other thing that might have some bearing is temperature. I have my incubator set at 35 degrees C and 50% RH (the books all recommend 50-70% humidity). Now, if you incubate the Apidea, you may find the queens emerge a little earlier. However, that is not a practice that I would recommend because of the stress it places on the workers. The recommendation from the manufacturers of the Apidea (from memory) is that they are kept in a cool, dark place for the first 3 days to allow them to develop into a family unit and start to draw comb on the foundation. Did you do that first?

Absolutely right on Apidea instructions, but my experience is there is no comb-building while Q- but the day a cell goes in the popcorn fires up. But yes, I did do that.

So: my exact chronology:

D4 (Sunday 20 May) Graft, 4pm. 14 grafts into Q- split of a "breeding" colony. EQcs all torn down

D11 (Sunday 27 May). Shook bees into 4 Apideas from super of same Q- colony. Into garage.

D14 (Wed 30 May, 4pm) 7 cells disposed as follows:

1) Half of (same) original Q- colony on same site, in nuc (super put on Q+ side with no paper etc)
2) Other half of original Q- colony, in nuc, into garage
3) Into hopelessly Q- nuc split from breakup of bad-tempered colony.
4-6) Into Apideas in incubator at 35C
7) As sentinel into incubator in jar. Apidea in reserve.

D14.5 (Thursday 1 June, 6am) Sprayed water. Dropped sentinel, stuck to roof of incubator. Sorry. Killed outright: autopsy revealed dark eyes, black head, darkening thorax, tiny wing buds and white abdomen.

D15.0 (Thursday 31 May, 11:59 pm). Sprayed water and with my sentinel dead, checked a cell; all had emerged. Did not/could not check status of 3 in nucs.

D16.0 (Friday 1 June, 10pm) 3 Apideas out onto "mating table".

D17.0 (Saturday 2 June, 10pm) Nuc from garage to shed roof.

Sunday 3 June, saw and marked all Apidea Qs. All Apideas flying well.