Foundationless beekeeping

[Tom Bick]

if bees want drone cells they will produce them whether on foundation or not in fact it probably takes them more effort if they are on worker foundation. They also tear it down and rebuild as worker again if they need it.

Interesting that as I have not seen it or should I say noticed it on any of my frames but there is always a first time. Thanks

 

[Finman]

Yes it is, let's see some more. Natural comb really is fascinating.

To me they are exactly the same as denatural. (denatured)

.

 

[Finman]

They also tear it down and rebuild as worker again if they need it.?

I have never seen that. That should mean that there are no old drone combs in the hive but they really have them much.
In late summer bees draw only worker cells.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have never seen that. .

Blinkers can be a damn nuisance sometimes!

 

[Finman]

Blinkers can be a damn nuisance sometimes!

Or vivid imagination

 

[Itchy]

And this is what they will do if there aren't enough frames in the box....

 

[Finman]

And this is what they will do if there aren't enough frames in the box....

I have seen everything in my hives. But none of them is not a miracle. They just do it.

If you put 9 frames instead of 10 frames, you will meet all kind of figures.

 

[Tom Bick]

And this is what they will do if there aren't enough frames in the box....

Yes and they will do that with any gap but lovely all the same.

 

[Swarm]

I just love the way they work.

 

[Blacky50]

Very interesting posts and thanks for taking the time sharing your experiences with foundationless frames.

I was thinking about running the brood box foundationless on the basis that the brood area is the key area to keep free of anything which might come from purchased foundation.

Using double brood boxes and swapping them around each year is a good idea to keep a good turnover to keep them fresh.

I will be giving it a go this year.

 

[Tom Bick]

Don’t forget to let us know how you get on blacky50 and I hope you see the improvements I did and enjoy it. If you have any questions just dip back into the thread and I am sure they will be answered.

 

[cjhart2]

Thanks Tom , Also heading this way this year . Expanding from 4 to 10 , the expansion will all be based on foundationless . Much more natural way to go . I still marvel at the way they build natural comb .

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks Tom , Also heading this way this year . Expanding from 4 to 10 , the expansion will all be based on foundationless . Much more natural way to go . I still marvel at the way they build natural comb .

In that case you will defiantly enjoy it and perhaps as much as the bees.

 

[ugcheleuce]

This thread is not intended to be...

I haven't read the post yet, but I looked at the attached images.

I notice that your wires are hanging quote loosely in the frames. You are aware that one can use a wire crimper to stretch them tight, right?

I also notice that (particularly in one image) the bees don't build comb on the wire itself and don't build or use cells where the wire is. This phenomenon also occurs in frames with wax foundation -- you can often see where the wires are because the bees don't use those cells.

Well, the purpose of the wires is to strengthen the comb, right? But it looks like the wire in your frames actually weaken the comb, since the bees seem to avoid it. And your wires are hanging loosely anyway. Wouldn't it be better to use something else to strenthen the comb (e.g. one or two vertical dowels stuck to the top bar)?

 

[pargyle]

I haven't read the post yet, but I looked at the attached images.

I notice that your wires are hanging quote loosely in the frames. You are aware that one can use a wire crimper to stretch them tight, right?

I also notice that (particularly in one image) the bees don't build comb on the wire itself and don't build or use cells where the wire is. This phenomenon also occurs in frames with wax foundation -- you can often see where the wires are because the bees don't use those cells.

Well, the purpose of the wires is to strengthen the comb, right? But it looks like the wire in your frames actually weaken the comb, since the bees seem to avoid it. And your wires are hanging loosely anyway. Wouldn't it be better to use something else to strenthen the comb (e.g. one or two vertical dowels stuck to the top bar)?

From Tom's original post....

"Last year after convincing a friend to have a go he wired his frames with a strong fishing line and it was obvious that the bees prefer this over wire as they sometimes work around the wire but seem more inclined to incorporate the fishing line within the wax. The wires can be evenly spaced but in the case of brood frames, it is a good thing to have the bottom wire slightly closer to the bottom rail. "

I crimp my wires to tighten them and the bees sometimes avoid using the cells where the wire passes through them but it doesn't stop them building and incorporating the wires into the comb.

The fishing line idea sounds like an option although I have about 35 metres of s/s wire to use up first.

You are correct that you see cells unused on comb built on wired foundation but I don't consider it a problem.

 

[Itchy]

"one or two vertical dowels stuck to the top bar" interesting idea...why not? Might give that a go next season

 

[Hivemaker.]

"one or two vertical dowels stuck to the top bar" interesting idea...why not? Might give that a go next season

Like this. http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ing-nucs-on-mini-frames&p=1016434#post1016434

 

[ugcheleuce]

Biggest losses of energy becomes at the beginning of summer, when bees rear workers for main yield. Drone larva feeding takes much energy from a small colony and then those drones does not forage honey and pollen 8 weeks later. Start of surplus foraging is delayed then.

Tom (and I) have both stated that any loss of production as a result of being foundationless is a price worth paying when offset against the apparent advantages and benefits.

Yes, but even if you are satisfied with the loss, it is always a good thing to know when or why the loss occurs, because you don't *have to* have a loss, and if you know roughly where the loss occurs, you can try to minimise it.

Say, what do you think is the main thing or things that eventually lead to loss of a larger honey crop due to the fact that you're using foundationless beekeeping? Is it simply the fact that (a) they use up a lot of honey to build the comb, which in turn would mean less honey stored in the supers, or could it be (as Finman suggests) the fact that (b) there will be more drone brood, which in turn would lead to fewer workers when many workers are needed, which in turn leads to less foraging?

If Finman's theory is correct, then one should be able to reduce the impact of that by removing drone comb and/or drone brood right before or shortly after the start of the flow. Eventually drone comb will return naturally, but maybe there will be more bees during a time when it is critical for there to be lots of bees.

 

[Finman]

Yes
If Finman's theory is correct, then one should be able to .

It was measured in a research. It is not a theory.

All have been known for decades.

.

 

[Tom Bick]

I haven't read the post yet, but I looked at the attached images.

I notice that your wires are hanging quote loosely in the frames. You are aware that one can use a wire crimper to stretch them tight, right?

I also notice that (particularly in one image) the bees don't build comb on the wire itself and don't build or use cells where the wire is. This phenomenon also occurs in frames with wax foundation -- you can often see where the wires are because the bees don't use those cells.

Well, the purpose of the wires is to strengthen the comb, right? But it looks like the wire in your frames actually weaken the comb, since the bees seem to avoid it. And your wires are hanging loosely anyway. Wouldn't it be better to use something else to strenthen the comb (e.g. one or two vertical dowels stuck to the top bar)?

Hi ugcheleuce thanks for your observations and comments. The photos were examples and make more sense after reading the post. The wire in the last photo does look a bit slack but it was also a heavy gauge wire and as a result not easy to pull so tight as to fully straighten and secure but more than tight enough for the job required. All my other frames are wired with a better gauge and as a result nice and tight, I am no musician but can get a tune from the wires.

I have experimented with eyelets in the past but they are time consuming and not needed and as a result it is possible to catch and pull the wire with and it can pull into the timber and loosen the wire but even this has little effect on the performance as I am not interested in extracting brood frames and the wire is just needed for comb support. The staples are the best compromise and a great tip from this forum.

The crimping tool is just that and will not tighten the wire. It will make it look less slack and if pressure is applied the wire will straighten but once incorporated into the wax will probably be fine. I have strong hands and a simple jig, a board with four nails that hold the frame steady on the four corners, so I can pull the wire tight without distorting the frame and my taped soar fingers after will tell you so.

As you can see from my post it looks as though the bees prefer strong fishing line over wire and I will be using this next year it may also be easier on the fingers. The bees do go round the wire on occasion but easy to fix, simply push the comb into the wire or run your hive tool along the wire damaging the wax and when the bees repair the comb they then often incorporate the wire. That frame in the photo somehow slipped past quality control but its ok all the same and comb is surprisingly strong after a few brood cycles.

It will be interesting to see how two vertical dowels work I know it has been tried on TBH’s. To me they may be too thick and have the effect of splitting the frame into three combs stopping and starting at each dowel and if the bees were to incorporate them maintaining the depth of cells required for brood the frames may have nice but not helpful bumps on the face of the comb. Hay but who am I to say it won’t work and everything is worth a go and it just may be perfect.