Foundation suppliers

[Jed D]

I'm now about to order our foundation for the coming year ( 200 sheets ).
And we've always ordered it from a well known suppler in Lincs.
However , I've spotted some on Flea bay , which would work out cheaper !

My Question is.....
Is there such a thing as a bargain, when it comes to foundation ?
Or could is be " how do I say it nicely " poorer quality !!

I want our Bees to have the best ' but if I can save some money on foundation , I'll buy another Brood Box..

P.S. We have no real amount of wax to trade in..

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I'm now about to order our foundation for the coming year ( 200 sheets ).
And we've always ordered it from a well known suppler in Lincs.
However , I've spotted some on Flea bay , which would work out cheaper !

My Question is.....
Is there such a thing as a bargain, when it comes to foundation ?
Or could is be " how do I say it nicely " poorer quality !!

I want our Bees to have the best ' but if I can save some money on foundation , I'll buy another Brood Box..

P.S. We have no real amount of wax to trade in..

Did you ask your local association if they operate a bulk purchase scheme? Great savings to be had if this is run on a regional basis but orders are normally taken October or November so you probably missed the boat this year.

 

[Stiffy]

I'm now about to order our foundation for the coming year ( 200 sheets ).
And we've always ordered it from a well known suppler in Lincs.
However , I've spotted some on Flea bay , which would work out cheaper !

My Question is.....
Is there such a thing as a bargain, when it comes to foundation ?
Or could is be " how do I say it nicely " poorer quality !!

I want our Bees to have the best ' but if I can save some money on foundation , I'll buy another Brood Box..

P.S. We have no real amount of wax to trade in..

If you want your bees to have the best let them draw their own, nothing can beat it.
S

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Is there such a thing as a bargain, when it comes to foundation ?
if I can save some money on foundation , I'll buy another Brood Box..

Stiffy beat me to it, but the best foundation is free. I buy a little for starter strips, and I still buy drone foundation (a drone frame means they draw worker comb in the brood box), but the bees make 90pct of their foundation.

There's a fallacy about "a pound of foundation saves ten pounds of honey"; the bees' own foundation is MUCH lighter than the stuff we put in. That is:

1) A PITA to put into frames
2) Of unknown provenance and (unless organic) probably laced with acaricides etc
3) An expensive way to buy honey, even at 10:1
4) Wrinkly
5) Can be a nightmare to get them to draw, so gets more wrinkly


And in the right circumstances, the bees will draw foundationless frames in an instant

 

[Pete D]

Maisemoore seem to offer best discount (20%) on larger orders.

I will be getting mine at tradex show 1st week of March, do have some wax to trade (hoping to get a bit more yet). Meantime frames made up with out 1 bottom bar and the nip it in place piece.

Not sure I will let the bees draw their own in my 14x12s.

 

[Eyeman]

I want our Bees to have the best ' but if I can save some money on foundation , I'll buy another Brood Box..

Organic is available, just google.
Of next importance is how fresh the foundation is? If you buy local then check it out first. I was off loaded some stale sheets a few years ago.
Alec

 

[MikeT]

Jed
I presume this was a supplier from Devon with a Far East Trading name. I bought a complete hive from them last year with wax all seemed fine.

Mike

 

[peteinwilts]

I let half of my bees draw their own brood frames last year.

Those that had the opportunity faired a lot better than those on foundation. The odd hive produced brace comb, and probably 1 in 10 frames were not straight.
The differences in the willingness to expand was very noticeable, and therefore less inclined to want to make QC's.

All but two of my tests were on Nationals. I am not sure about 14x12, and had a higher frame failure rate. (I like 14x12's, but suffer with back issues and suffer a lot more when inspecting them, hence most of mine are nationals)

I have not yet attempted for them to build their own super foundation. The one or two frames that I gave them, they started from the bottom of the frame, so did not progress any further.

Also, I would need to prewire the frames to prevent them falling apart in the extractor (?). I would be very interested in knowing if anyone has successfully done this, or whether they only use the crush and strain method. (not attempting to hijack the thread!)

I have done a couple of 'beekeepingforum' orders from Kemble to bulk up to maximum discount. Their foundation is a little more expensive, but is fragrant and seems to be far superior than those from the other suppliers I have tried.

The foundation seems superior to me. I have not yet trailed whether the bees prefer it to other suppliers just yet....

 

[oliver90owner]

Jed D,

The alternative reply, to a post above, and my advice to you.

Cheap can mean a bargain or it could mean an inferior product. Sometimes to the point where the bees would prefer to ignore it. You should be aware that some foundation wax has been cut with inferior wax, often of other (non-bee) origin. I would not touch chinese foundation with the proverbial bargepole!

About the fallacy quoted above. RUBBISH! Ignoring the antiquated units used, it is generally accepted that each kilogram of wax costs around five kilograms of honey crop. It is claimed that the ratio can be as much as 25:1 in some circumstances. Note here there is NO MENTION OF FOUNDATION whatsoever.

I would expect that someone has made up their own version, either to fit the thread or because they have not understood what they have been told (or have read) or have been told (or read) a load of rubbish by a third party. Take your choice. Perhaps the other poster might like to clarify the origin of his claim?.

The alternative experience:

Foundation is easily fitted to the frame (assuming both are square and the correct size, of course).

Provenance may be an issue or it may not - using, or supplying, your own wax should certainly make it a non-issue.

It is not an expensive way to buy honey at all. At the accepted 'rate of exhange' even thicker foundation is good value. Clearly the septa do not need to be drawn and some of the foundation material is used in drawing the cell walls.

Wrinkly? Simply down to the inexperienced beekeeper almost every time, I would suggest. Either that or an attempt to defame good foundation by offering a jaundiced view.

Bees only draw comb when THEY need it. Consider a part-drawn comb hanging only from the top bar. Would you consider that to be better/more robustthan a part-drawn comb supported by the foundation (supported, in turn, by the frame)? Given less work to do, supplied foundation should allow more comb to be drawn (and put to use) by fewer bees in less time. Inexperienced beeks that supply excesses of comb over that needed are only a nuisance to themselves, fortunately. If proper thought and consideration are given to the timing and rate of supply, there is no problem whatsoever of any wrinkled comb. Inexperience is the likely cause of nightmares in this instance, I would suggest - not the foundation!

Bees do not draw comb 'in an instant', with or without foundation. The claim that they do has about as much foundation as he uses! Bees will draw foundation quickly at any time they need it (by definition, conditions will be favourable), but with foundation they will need less wax to be secreted by the bees.

There are other advantages, probably not even experienced by an inexperieced beekeeper.

The cells drawn with foundation should be the size and type on the foundation. If drone culling is part of an IPM control system, patches of drone brood scattered around the frames is a definite disadvantage to the point of beeing a 'nightmare' situation for any inexperienced beek carrying it out.

Placement of a frame of foundation within the broodnest (carried out only at certain times) is far more likely to result in a properly drawn frame of comb, rather than finding cross-comb.

The obvious downside of foundation is that it is less 'natural' than comb drawn freely by the bees. But then, is a framed hive really a 'natural' home for a colony of bees? So lets keep it real, here.

A couple of questions you might ask yourself.

Why does 'thin' foundation (for cut comb) cost more while the amount of wax in each sheet is less than in the 'standard' product?

Why do Thrones (for instance) offer more than one quality (grade) of foundation to their cusomers, with the obvious cost differentials?

My advice costs exactly the same as the poster above. Both cannot be right, I would suggest - at least for the separate points, if not in entirety.

So your choice, really, as to which advice you accept, if either.

Questions?

RAB

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There's a fallacy about "a pound of foundation saves ten pounds of honey"; the bees' own foundation is MUCH lighter than the stuff we put in.

Well, you're the expert - so I'll take your word on that.

A PITA to put into frames

Well, your obviously doing something wrong, I think you need more practice

4) Wrinkly

Obviously doing something wrong - try reading a different book.

But as with RAB I would be very careful of suppliers who sell wax of dubious (oriental?) origin - cut with all kinds of weird things I find I have good service and wax from the usual suspects - Maisies, big T's and CWJ (who usually sell big T's wax but cheaper!)

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Some good forum beef! I've missed it.

INPO:

We're complaining about old-fashioned units when discussing a w/w ratio? Really? I see your kilo and raise you a solar mass (given enough decimals)

Here's Finman quoting a decent source at 8:1. http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=285666&postcount=2 8:1, 10:1 - sosumi.

We have a spread of 5:1 to 25:1 above. Average, in round numbers, 10:1

And "wrinkly". So by the time your foundation is in and hanging in a frame for a couple of days, it and the frame are flat enough not to affect beespace at all, after the bees have built out worker cells. You're as good an architect as a colony of honeybees. :notworthy:

Anyone who is allowing (incentivizing, I mean) bees to build drone cells at random is just that, anyone.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Also, I would need to prewire the frames to prevent them falling apart in the extractor (?). I would be very interested in knowing if anyone has successfully done this, or whether they only use the crush and strain method. (not attempting to hijack the thread!)

Kemble foundation is a little more expensive, but is fragrant and seems to be far superior than those from the other suppliers I have tried.

There are threads from Tom Bick on this very thing somewhere.
And agree re Kemble wax

 

[Hivemaker.]

When i used to buy or exchange wax for foundation the best i found with regards colour was from KBS, but i no longer buy in any foundation, so have no idea who would supply the best now.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And "wrinkly". So by the time your foundation is in and hanging in a frame for a couple of days, it and the frame are flat enough not to affect beespace at all, after the bees have built out worker cells.

Well, as usual you are talking a load of tripe - 90% of my brood and all my super frames started on foundation, it fits in the frames no problem and doesn't get 'wrinkly' (whatever that means) it stays in place and the bees draw out cells tidily with no beespace issues. That's a fact from my observations, not surmise.Fair enough the bees sometimes go a bit freehand, but by and large they follow the foundation and there is seldom a beespace issue.
According to Whitcomb's 1946 experiment, 6.66 to 8.80 pounds of honey yields 1 pound of wax, your assumption that

the bees' own foundation is MUCH lighter than the stuff we put in.

doesn't change that fact - it is just that the bees can draw the septum thinner - less wax less weight - nothing to do with the honey to wax ratio. think about it!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

If the bees thin the septum, yes. I'll be curious to weigh it out.

 

[peteinwilts]

Anyone who is allowing (incentivizing, I mean) bees to build drone cells at random is just that, anyone.

A hive left to its own devices does not build drone cells here, there and everywhere. They follow a pattern. The drone cells will follow the edge of the brood nest, and in some cases, dedicate a single frame to drones (which makes drone culling sooo easy!). It is not in their best interest to make drone cells in the middle of frames.

I hasten to add this is not something I read. This is only something I have observed when trialling with 22 hives and 9 NUC's last year (to a greater or lesser extent) . I cannot comment regarding scientific study's or what the BBKA handbook may or may not say\dictate.

I presume TB hive owners have the same observation...(?)

I do not use wax starter strips. A starter strip made from a breakfast cereal packet or similar seems to work just as well.

I believe a hive that DOES have drone cells here, there and everywhere are trying to say something!

 

[pargyle]

A hive left to its own devices does not build drone cells here, there and everywhere. They follow a pattern. The drone cells will follow the edge of the brood nest, and in some cases, dedicate a single frame to drones (which makes drone culling sooo easy!). It is not in their best interest to make drone cells in the middle of frames.

Exactly what I see in my three foundationless colonies ... 14 x 12 frames - happens in both Nucs and standard brood boxes - very noticeable in my LDH which is a big colony and well established.

 

[Pete D]

Foundation is reasonably cheap when trading in your old wax.
Put it in at the right time, get the spacing right and the bees do a great job, sometimes I interfere and manipulate the odd frame.
Drone brood I find is always towards the edge of the frame, usually the lower edge, anywhere else indicates a problem, a super frame for 2 brood cycles allows a reasonable amount of drone culling.
90% of my foundation is T's premier grade.
Drawn comb is worth a lot at certain times of the year and I always aim to sacrifice as little as possible other than changing brood frames on a 3 year cycle or sooner if appropriate.

Like most things you get what you pay for.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

So @Jed D, we'll never be unanimous, and I'm off to lick my wounds (not life-threatening) but a body of opinion on here gives "bees!" As the answer to "Foundation suppliers?"

 

[Little John]

If you feed sugar syrup when the girls are drawing comb, then the various figures so often quoted for the amount of 'honey' used to make wax will drop considerably.

LJ