Extended release OAV

[Erichalfbee]

Had SBI round to check for AFB and we got chatting about OAV
Seemingly Randy Oliver is having great success with extended release Oxalic so I looked it up
https://scientificbeekeeping.com/mite-control-while-honey-is-on-the-hive-part-4/
Extended release seems to prevent the mites entering the brood cells to reproduce and the mites dwindle.

Is there a place for such a preparation?

 

[Markthebuilder]

Perhaps oa is just at a lower level of concentration through the hive so whilst it is preventing reproduction it is taking longer to kill

 

[hemo]

The treatment suggests the dried out saturated towels takes time to absorb atmospheric moisture within the hive to allow the OA to release, probably not such an issue in Northern EU. But as OA isn't even legal to use on it's own we haven't a hell's chance of OAE release here, can't see SBI turning a blind eye.

That said interesting to see the shorter days application of OAV works well.

 

[Apiarist]

...as OA isn't even legal to use on it's own we haven't a hell's chance of OAE release here...

Is that very strictly correct???
My understanding was that the sale of Oxalic Acid for use in the hive, in the way Randy Oliver has devised, is not allowed to be advertised for sale (and therefore not allowed to be sold), but that Oxalic Acid can be sold on it's own.... . . . . ....aaaaaaannnnd then it is not illegal for a beekeeper to use it in the way Randy Oliver has used it against varroa.

Can someone give us clarification on this? A link to a gov. site, etc. would quickly end a long threaded discussion, if you have one handy.

PS: Hope I haven't annoyed anyone by splitting hairs on this important issue.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Is that very strictly correct???
My understanding was that the sale of Oxalic Acid for use in the hive, in the way Randy Oliver has devised, is not allowed to be advertised for sale (and therefore not allowed to be sold), but that Oxalic Acid can be sold on it's own.... . . . . ....aaaaaaannnnd then it is not illegal for a beekeeper to use it in the way Randy Oliver has used it against varroa.

Can someone give us clarification on this? A link to a gov. site, etc. would quickly end a long threaded discussion, if you have one handy.

PS: Hope I haven't annoyed anyone by splitting hairs on this important issue.

https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/ProductInformationDatabase/current/search-results

 

[Apiarist]

The relevance of a Link to "Expired Specified Feed Additives" is lost on me?
"Currently authorised products" does not address the question / point I raised, as it requires the word "authorised" to be defined.

 

[W0otz]

Is there a place for such a preparation?

As in "Is there a place for such a preparation as part of an IPM program?" in which case I'm not qualified to answer, but I'd guess there is.
or "Is there a place to obtain such a preparation," in which case Oxalic Acid Strips, Pack of 20 - Welcome to Abelo's Beekeeping Supplies

 

[mbc]

Is that very strictly correct???
My understanding was that the sale of Oxalic Acid for use in the hive, in the way Randy Oliver has devised, is not allowed to be advertised for sale (and therefore not allowed to be sold), but that Oxalic Acid can be sold on it's own.... . . . . ....aaaaaaannnnd then it is not illegal for a beekeeper to use it in the way Randy Oliver has used it against varroa.

Can someone give us clarification on this? A link to a gov. site, etc. would quickly end a long threaded discussion, if you have one handy.

PS: Hope I haven't annoyed anyone by splitting hairs on this important issue.

If you're putting in oxalic acid in any form- other than apibioxal strictly as the label states -with the intention of treating your bees then its against regs.
Bleaching top bars is entirely allowed though so it's best not to stir the hornets nest on this one imho.
The late, great hivemaker aka Pete Little worked very diligently formulating a working recipe for extended release Oxalic Acid strips and was happy to share his hard won knowledge to other top bar bleachers as, as good as Randy Oliver's work is, his bees live in a very different environment to that found anywhere in blighty

 

[Foxylad]

When the public buy honey, primarily from the supermarket. A blend on eu and non eu honey. Is this treatment being used abroad. And not already being sold in this country? In some states there treating OA with supers on. Are we not being denied a treatment that is in fact safe to use with supers on.
The whole debate on using Api-Bioxal is laughable. Either OA is safe or isn’t.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In some states there treating OA with supers on. Are we not being denied a treatment that is in fact safe to use with supers on.

Ask the BBKA why they kept their mouths shut when they should have been arguing the case same as other people were.
Ah! I forgot - imports...................................

 

[Erichalfbee]

Either OA is safe or isn’t.

Only if you are American, seemingly

 

[Apiarist]

If you're putting in oxalic acid in any form- other than apibioxal strictly as the label states -with the intention of treating your bees then its against regs.

Which "regs"?

Sorry in advance if my knit picking is a bit annoying, I just like to have things nailed down to be absolutely clear...

 

[Newbeeneil]

The relevance of a Link to "Expired Specified Feed Additives" is lost on me?
"Currently authorised products" does not address the question / point I raised, as it requires the word "authorised" to be defined.

Ooooops somehow I got the wrong page.
https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/ProductInformationDatabase/current/search-results

 

[Wilco]

Currently OA is not licensed to be used as a treatment for varroa unless in the api-bioxal formulation.

This means using any other formulation for varroa is illegal. Using it for other purposes (non medicinal) which happens to incidentally kill varroa is not illegal.

However! There is an exception which can be made whereby vets may prescribe alternatives under 'The Cascade' in line with certain stipulations. Honestly I do not think it is sensible to get vets involved here and the cost of any prescription is likely to outweigh the savings of not using api-bioxal unless you have a significant number of hives.

I am currently looking into the feasibility of getting a generic OA for vaporisation licensed- fitting this around work, family and too many hobbies but will update on progress. If it is possible to do this I will probably look to just slowly recover costs of licensing rather than try to make a living off it so hopefully any price change would be minimal.

 

[mbc]

Which "regs"?

Sorry in advance if my knit picking is a bit annoying, I just like to have things nailed down to be absolutely clear...

https://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?sectionid=110

 

[Apiarist]

Ooooops somehow I got the wrong page.

You mean here,
https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/ProductInformationDatabase/current/starts-with-o?page=4last four items at bottom of page.

 

[hemo]

You mean here,
https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/ProductInformationDatabase/current/starts-with-o?page=4last four items at bottom of page.

They are licensed products and not the generic 99.9 boat cleansing OA we used to buy and use. Being licensed the cost is extortionate compared to generic OA which as we know is a better product on it's own without snake oil additives added.

 

[Apiarist]

https://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?sectionid=110

That web page (if you click the links at the bottom as well) basically relates to the Manufacture & Marketing (and therefore sale) of treatments in the hive.

It is not dealing with a beek making up their own substance (and delivery method), like that which has been used by Randy Oliver.

I have yet to read from a government endorsed source that it is illegal for a beek to treat their hives / bees with a home-made remedy, like Randy Oliver's Oxalic Acid soaked paper towels, ... or Rhubarb Leaves (which one beek in my Association swore by).

 

[Leigh]

Randy's method does not work well in the UK - not sure why, possibly our maritime climate is too damp.

There was an interesting video on youtube by Bob Binnie a few weeks back where he was discussing Randy's work with some research scientists. They also found that it didn't work in their area. Whilst Randy has had great success with it, this doesn't mean it works everywhere. When I trialled it, hives were riddled at the end of treatment. At best in the UK, it keeps varroa levels stable, at worst it has no effect at all.

I think OA vapour is very effective during bloodless periods (especially as a winter treatment) and is effective a final winter knockdown following on from an effective autumn treatment.

In the southern UK, we could really do with an effective treatment (which actually works, doesn't kill queens or healthy bees etc....I will no longer use the go to Formic treatment pads due to the risks and also the occasional ineffectiveness I've found) that can be used with supers on, as many of us have honey flows from April through to October (Ivy). The treatment for late summer/early autumn is such an important one to allow healthy bees to be bred for winter, but often we are left with the choice to either treat, or to go for an Ivy crop.

 

[mdotb]

That web page (if you click the links at the bottom as well) basically relates to the Manufacture & Marketing (and therefore sale) of treatments in the hive.

It is not dealing with a beek making up their own substance (and delivery method), like that which has been used by Randy Oliver.

I have yet to read from a government endorsed source that it is illegal for a beek to treat their hives / bees with a home-made remedy, like Randy Oliver's Oxalic Acid soaked paper towels, ... or Rhubarb Leaves (which one beek in my Association swore by).

You’ve misunderstood what a “marketing authorisation” is needed for. Under the The Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2013:

Administration of the product
8. No person may administer a veterinary medicinal product to an animal unless—
(a)the product has a marketing authorisation authorising its administration in the United Kingdom, and the administration is in accordance with that marketing authorisation; or
(b)it is administered in accordance with Schedule 4 (administration of a veterinary medicinal product outside the terms of a marketing authorisation) or Schedule 6 (exemptions for small pet animals).

Clause 2 covers the definition of veterinary medicinal products:
Definition of “veterinary medicinal product”, interpretation and scope
2.—(1) In these Regulations “veterinary medicinal product” means—
(a)any substance or combination of substances presented as having properties for treating or preventing disease in animals; or
(b)any substance or combination of substances that may be used in, or administered to, animals with a view either to restoring, correcting or modifying physiological functions by exerting a pharmacological, immunological or metabolic action, or to making a medical diagnosis.

of which part b is quite open, hence the earlier interpretation posted on this thread that if there is a marketing authorisation for a product containing the substance oxalic acid, it can be considered a vmp.

I’m not giving legal advice, come to your own interpretation by all means, but “no person may administer … to animals” doesn’t grant the “end user” any exemption from lack of marketing authorisation that you suggest.