EU approved Oxalic Acid

[MuswellMetro]

from http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15189 poll

NPB - vet medicine records for all livestock are the same across EU AFAIK.

MM - interesting that OA is not a "recognised" treatment by FERA and yet has to be noted (along with the thymol based options).

what about those who use crystals for both? No lot numbers on those from most sources.

i had the same discussion with Alan Byrham RBI for South EAst at the National Honey Show, while there was no oxalic treatment approved in the EU then OA could be administered ab lib but changed on the approval of Oxuvar,

Now technically we should only we applying OA by a EU approved method ie prescribed by a veterinary surgeon under the cascade principle. A commercially prepared oxalic acid based treatment ‘Oxuvar’, which is approved for use in at least one EU country, is available. see FAQ on the NBU Beesbase web site for new advise

well i suppose this change that came in in November 2011 was going to happen as someone took a commercial view and paid the fees to get their oxalic treatment EU approved ( anyone know what % OA w/v Oxuvar is ?)

But for those of us that use Oxalic as a Hive Cleaner what is it going to take for some Local trading standard jobs worth banning our Honey as the OA treatment is not in accordance with the new EU approved OXuvar..

The conversation with alan byrham NBU South East RBI at the honey show ( the man with the hat) and his straight NBU views was we must use OXuvar not Oxalic Dihydrate ( his view on thymol is the same no "hivemaker type mixtures" or Crystals).....but i kept quiet as it would be a pain getting the Oxuvar and because half the winter discussion on here with Finman on OA % would loose their fun


why keep quiet, well i have done my OA now !!!!!

 

[For want of a better word]

I collate everything I do every second of the day
Each time I wash my hands I record the exact time and exact amount I use, the water temperature /pH/ hardness etc not forgetting the batch number of the soap.
And when I wash my beesuit, after every apiary visit of course, I do the same!

Smacks of Aspberger's Syndrome!

 

[For want of a better word]

Thinking about this..

could have been saved for APRIL 1st ?

 

[Into the lions den]

As if any of us will pay any attention............no way will I pay a crucifying price for ANY bog ordinary treatment.

I DO really like to keep my top bars nice and bleached. Oxalic acid is a great and regularly used timber bleacher...........put it in some syrup and the bees will even clean it up for you. Me? Using it as a medication? Never!

I miss most of the top bars? Gee. must need glasses.

ps. I even buy it from a timber preservation company in Northern Ireland............at a ridiculously low price compared to most levels quoted here. Under 1p a colony...............the sugar costs far more.

 

[Finman]

.
REALLY!

when Trutshov became a prime secretary of Soviet Union, he reliesed 250 000 prisoners who had told anti communsit jokes. for example in Hungary one guy got 7 months prison when he had said that Trutshov is fat.

Now what we are going to do now when all those trickling prisoners will be free in EU? Does it mean honey over production?

 

[gavin]

well i suppose this change that came in in November 2011 was going to happen as someone took a commercial view and paid the fees to get their oxalic treatment EU approved ( anyone know what % OA w/v Oxuvar is ?)

[snip]

.....but i kept quiet as it would be a pain getting the Oxuvar and because half the winter discussion on here with Finman on OA % would loose their fun

3.5% oxalic acid dihydrate (3.5g OAdh per 100 mls in 1:1 syrup). Those of you who call the 4.5% (75+1000+1000) recipe '3.2%' might call the Oxuvar recipe 2.8% instead.

That is a reasonable concentration to use and the Oxuvar preparation seem to come directly from the Swiss published recommendation. I think it sounds like a good product for the amateur. Prepared oxalic solution without the sugar, so no need for a fine scale balance, just add the sugar and mix. The solution will be stable until then.

Anyone know what it costs in the UK? Companies like Thornes will, before long, have their own 'Suitably Qualified Person' to supervise (even at a distance) sales of veterinary products for bees so nothing significant should change for the purchaser.

Careful Murray, you don't get long to edit your contributions on this forum! There are bee farmers who - out of principle - want to be completely legal in their use of chemicals on bees. The pressure for everyone to do so will only increase over time. The UK seems to be a little out of line with other EU countries on this (not that it matters greatly to the current government perhaps). And bees are food-producing animals after all, so I don't really think that a free-for-all is on regarding chemicals added to hives. Yes, I know that it is daft that you can't use the same chemical as is found in legal preparations but as you can see from reading this forum the methods and the concentration people actually use can vary dramatically.

Don't worry MM, I can see the annual festive bun-fight with Finman continuing for a while yet.

Gavin

 

[Finman]

.
Gavin Planet spoke again! UGH!

Even varroa researchers do not use that kind of mathematics.

Please inform, when those percents are w or v. I cannot sleep next night.
They are good calculations but 12 years too late. Learning away is so difficult. Ugh.

 

[MuswellMetro]

As if any of us will pay any attention............no way will I pay a crucifying price for ANY bog ordinary treatment.

I DO really like to keep my top bars nice and bleached. Oxalic acid is a great and regularly used timber bleacher...........put it in some syrup and the bees will even clean it up for you. Me? Using it as a medication? Never!

I miss most of the top bars? Gee. must need glasses.

ps. I even buy it from a timber preservation company in Northern Ireland............at a ridiculously low price compared to most levels quoted here. Under 1p a colony...............the sugar costs far more.

I totally agree but the implication are massive if a Trading standards offcier gets involved....

Oxuvar is currently advertised by Thornes at £18 for 500ml to treat 10 hives, i not up to the volume you have but own mix OA costs me less than 50p to treat ten hives

 

[Finman]

3.5% oxalic acid dihydrate (3.5g OAdh per 100 mls in 1:1 syrup). Those of you who call the 4.5% (75+1000+1000) recipe '3.2%' might call the Oxuvar recipe 2.8% instead.
Gavin

to clear out this planet version Switzerland uses lighter 3,5 g in 100 ml syrup. It is 2,8%.

Other north Europe uses 7,5 +100 +100 = 3,2%


mls = millisiemens

 

[gavin]

to clear out this planet version Switzerland uses lighter 3,5 g in 100 ml syrup. It is 2,8%.

Exactly as I wrote then?

I've heard of quite a few already using this concentration in the UK. In time it may become the new standard.

At £18 a throw I reckon I'll still be making up my own for the rest of my beekeeping days. The £7.96 packet of oxalic acid crystals (500g) I bought from a Thornes agent the other week will last 10 years if I continue to be responsible for about 16 hives.

Murray might be in Perth jail already to keep me company.

 

[MuswellMetro]

It might even be more expensive than £18 as the current OXavar sold by Th**nes is not imported under the VMD casscade by by a Vet

for instance: Apivar ( Amitraz) was available illegally at the Cornish Show for £10 per packet (imported from france) that same pack imported via the cascade method by a local vet will cost a lot more....my vet charges £31 for the same pack


on costs, on costs, on costs

as a one off to treat 8 hives, no problem but on going, it is getting out of hand

 

[drstitson]

Not just Oxuvar - Italy has approved Api-Bioxal (from Chemicals Laif).

 

[Arfermo]

More bloody rules to watch out for - like the new EU one banning the reuse of glass jars that nobody with any sense will observe. World is going crazy. Won't be too long before I step off this planet perhaps but this almost makes it worth it.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Not just Oxuvar - Italy has approved Api-Bioxal (from Chemicals Laif).

we will get away with the Oxalic as a Hive cleaner for a few years yet, but all it will take for it to become illegal will be if Oxuvar or Api-Boxal pay the £20,000 UK registration fee to get it UK approved

Then home made oxalic concotions will not be aproved by Local trading standards officers......if that becomes the case i will buy the smallest jar of it avaiable and keep it on the shelf and use the batch number for the VMD records forms ( we ALL keep those don't )

you can tell i have had a Haringey Council trading standards officer around cant you.....i passed though with just a recomdention that i go on a certified food safetly level 2 course....she asked for everything VMD forms, batch numbers,receipts for apiguard, mode of extraction, sample honey labels

she only accepted 454g on the lable instead of 454 g( with a space) as the Rowes jar in the cupboard had the same......anyone know when the directive changed to allow 454g and well as 454 g( ie with a gap)

 

[Hivemaker.]

Then home made oxalic concotions will not be aproved by Local trading standards officers......

Are they approved now.

 

[yeogi75]

we have to keep samples of every product we make, with batch number date of manufacture amount manufactured specific gravity weight co lour, and that is for chemicals, forget food grade products too much cost, as charge between 20 - 30 thousand for each formula we produce, about 20 thousands formulas that would kill the trade, as will all the regulations on honey production which come under increasingly pressure and pricing, which could stop people from producing ,they might say three hives otherwise you need this and that and the other

 

[Into the lions den]

Careful Murray, you don't get long to edit your contributions on this forum! There are bee farmers who - out of principle - want to be completely legal in their use of chemicals on bees.

In this case no wish to edit it.................if anyone thinks I will pay a hefty price for oxalic acid..................amounting to nothing more than a private tax really, and officially sanctioned at that after paying a (deleted), oops ..... I mean a fee, to have the right to do so, then sorry.....no way. I really really do not like to see any of us being ripped off by opportunists.

Yes, I know that it is daft that you can't use the same chemical as is found in legal preparations but as you can see from reading this forum the methods and the concentration people actually use can vary dramatically.

I see the dispute, I read a fair amount of it. Bottom line is that utter precision is not needed. Sure, be careful not to overdose, but the range of concentrations being discussed are pretty well harmless, and after all.......what IS a seam of bees? 5ml per seam? Is that for 500 bees, 1500 bees, 3000 bees? The amount (rather than concentration) per bee or mite in a seam obviously varies a lot. Its all a 'near enough is good enough, more or less' system, within reason, and if they stick to the normal recipe and use it there is little need for the level of contemplation that goes on. The recipe works. The collateral damage is minimal. Use it. Only time I have heard of major damage was from a person not far from here who thought that 'more will be better', added more oxalic to the solution, and wiped out a third of their hives...............with a well established system ready to hand I would say it fair to describe my initial impression as one of incredulity.

Not sure why cascade system is so unworkable economically. A friend sourced Apivar through cascade. I know where the vet got it from.......it cost about 1.30 a hive to get it direct from that source, but after it had gone through the vet doing the cascade paperwork (not a big job I am lead to understand) it had become over 5.50 a hive..............go figure..........is cascade just a process for the vets doing the paperwork to operate some kind of little cartel, and again the beekeeper pays? I KNOW some beefarmers are doing it all through the official system, but to be honest not very many that I have direct personal knowledge of.

Anyway, I hear the catering in Perth prison is not too bad...........see you there. We can order our sugar free meals together!

 

[Finman]

.
You realy have interest to play that oxalic acid prisoner year after year.

i like X fartor programs. Do they show them in UK prisons?

We escape to woods if some one come to arrest us for oxalic acid. There is no TV. Only bears and mosqitoes.

 

[Erichalfbee]

.
There is no TV. Only bears and mosqitoes.

I once travelled to a wilderness centre near Oulu to watch bears. There were lots of them. I'd agree about the mosquitoes there were gazillions of those

 

[Hebeegeebee]

From the FERA Update:-

"What is the situation with hive cleansers?
There are products available, known as ‘hive cleansers’, which make no medicinal claims so are not considered to be honeybee medicaments. If you choose to use them it is good practice to follow label instructions and maintain a record in case residues are found in your hive products".

It also goes on to say "Do not use homemade concoctions". Does that mean that we can't use a banana for Chalk Brood now as well? *

* No I've never done it but I have heard that it's done!