Dutch Ban on Ritual Slaughter

[Midland Beek]

A good ban, and one that will mean that the slitting of animals throats to kill them in order to make Kosher and Halal meat will be outlawed. But it will only mean that Halal and Kosher meat will be imported from other countries into Holland, and probably lots from greedy farmers in the UK who do not give a wotsit about animal welfare.

 

[The Cumbrian]

probably lots from greedy farmers in the UK who do not give a wotsit about animal welfare.

You may be right, but for 30 years I had a lot to do with farmers and can't say I ever met one who didn't care about his stock and very few that were greedy.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I just wonder, Midland Beek, how much research you've done into halal/kosher slaughtering?

I understood there was at least a reasonable case to be made that it is more humane than the 'western' practices.

My suspicion is that most of us are squeamish about how animals are turned into meat - but it's easier to criticise the practice of 'others'.

Would I eat as much meat if I had to do the dirty deed? Probably not.

 

[JamezF]

I don't believe the change in the law outlaws slitting of animals throats to kill them at all. That, or something similar, is the usual method AIUI. What it outlaws is not stunning them first.

I'm not absolutely certain, but I'm fairly sure in the UK animals *must* be unconscious before they're bled to death, in which case there's little chance of UK farmers and/or slaughterhouses getting involved in the shipping of halal or kosher meat anywhere. I recall Panorama or some similar programme covered the illegal slaughter of animals for this purpose a couple of years ago.

James

 

[hedgerow pete]

slitting throats with out stunning if done properly is as about a good as it gets

 

[Erichalfbee]

slitting throats with out stunning if done properly is as about a good as it gets

When I did my meat inspection course at university we had to watch a ritual slaughter. The poor bullock was led up to a crush which immobilised him, This was turned upside down, his nose was clipped and tied to a ring on the floor to extend his neck which was then cut.
I shall never forget the rolling eyes and bellows of terror before his throat was cut.
Things have probably changed now ............. I hope.

 

[JamezF]

ISTR one of the "celeb chefs" being present at the slaughter of a goat (not in this country) where the handler very calmly had the goat lie down on its side and then very quickly slit its throat. The way it was presented made it look like they really wanted the animal to suffer as little as possible, but I have to admit that (despite killing and butchering my own chickens and game) I still found it fairly disconcerting.

On an industrial scale or with large or strong animals I find it hard to imagine that a similar approach is possible, which I guess leads to the situation ericA describes. And once the animal starts to panic it's supposed to reduce the quality of the meat.

James

 

[Storm™]

slitting throats with out stunning if done properly is as about a good as it gets

Hmm would Peter agree if he were on that slab I wonder.

Unconscious while it's all being done as you exanguinate yourself

Conscious - hearing everyone shouting over your screams as they get ready. Feeling the knife - the feel of your own blood splashing over you and then the automaton thrashing begins as you try to escape the unescapable and then feeling the heat as tenadrenaline courses through you and the O2 drops raising your heart rate while you ghasp your last rattling breaths before death takes you.

Hmmmm tasty. Yep bout as good as it gets. Bet that meat has a lovely flavour.

The thing is as Dusty says it's easy to judge. However we have laws that transcend religious rubbish otherwise people would still be stoned. So I don't think it's a case of judging Dusty, I think it's a case of people being appalled by practices they see as out of date and aborant in the name of religion and that conflict with the moral laws of our country re animal welfare.

Don't get me wrong I am not a pulse munching bead wearing guitar strumming do gooder, though they are my betters in a lot of respects, so I eat meat happily. But I get mine from a butchers and I can go see the farm where that meat come from any time I want. But if I had to eat Hallal meat I see no purpose in it being treated like that other than in the name of religion, so I would happily and exclusively eat vegetables and not another bite of meat would pass my lips. But that is my choice and my rite.

 

[JamezF]

And in my mailbox this morning I have:

Amazon recommends "Basic Butchering of Livestock and Game"...

James

 

[drstitson]

all NZ exports are Halal.

 

[Skyhook]

However we have laws that transcend religious rubbish otherwise people would still be stoned. So I don't think it's a case of judging Dusty, I think it's a case of people being appalled by practices they see as out of date and aborant in the name of religion and that conflict with the moral laws of our country re animal welfare.

The stupid thing is, it isn't even part of Koranic law- it's islamic tradition. Thye law states that the animal must be bled to death, not killed with a blunt instrument or be carrion, eg found dead before bleeding. This has been interpreted to exclude stunning, in case the stunning process accidentally kills the animal which has therefore not been bled to death.

No meat eater should be too comfortable with western practices however- the mass nature of modern slaughter means that practices are not always what one could hope for.

A friend of mine worked in Golden Valley poultry factory. The birds were hung upside down in shackles on a live cable. Their heads dipped into an earthed water bath to complete the circuit and shock them before their throats were cut by spinning blades. 'At least they're unconcious when they're killed then' I said. 'Well yes' he replied, 'As long as someone's remembered to put some water in the water bath'.

.

 

[Storm™]

When at school Skyhook, bout 1985, a friend who was my best friend at the time got a job in a turkey farm just outside of Chelmsford in Essex. As far as I'm aware it has a very good name. We had a show and tell about what work we did outside of school and the subject of my friends employment came up. We were intrigued as to what be had to do because the money he was quoting was better than any we had been getting.

This was roughly what he had to say:

"yeah so we have to pluck them which is paid well but if you kill them you get better money and it's quite fun"

Fun! We all said appalled.

"yeah its so funny I was in stitches cause you are given a lump of 4 by 2 and you go in the sheds and stay still and you just take a swing at their heads"

Oh my god that's sick

"nah it's funny cause they go mad and everyone starts swinging and everyone is running around trying to get as many as possible and they attack you which pisses me off cause they hurt so you take your frustration out on them it's great"

So we sat there in stunned silence - no one interested in the money any longer and reflected on someone we all thought we knew. This was long before anyone really pushed livestock welfare. Oh you may think that the laws were there but in a community of farmers there really wasnt the ethic. But even this was shocking to us. So if it's not the method of dispatch that should make us recoil then the zeal with which it's carried out in the isolation of slaughter houses and elsewhere, I hope does.

I've watched the example you gave happen. It's kinda grim but it works efficiently and calmly but only as you say, if it's got the water in. The turkeys I talk about suffered their fate due to demand outstripping manpower and time constraints I hope. But a part of me knows it still goes on, is enjoyed and is common. But it is not religious in any way and the laws in place forbid it anyway. And still they are broken. Use religion in this matter to permit what we perceive as cruelty and it will be adapted or interpreted to satisfy time/manpower constraints just as it is anywhere else but because of the sensitive nature of the situation i.e. Religious laws - we will be less inclined to interfere.

I dunno just my ramblings....

 

[Brosville]

Aged parent used to run occupational therapy classes at the local mental hospital - in it's catchment area was a major producer of broiler chicken that often died in a pool of their own misery (at Buxted) - there was a steady procession of people who'd had a major breakdown following employment at the plant - at first they were revolted, then they got "hardened" to it - then sometime in the future their brains exploded with the horror of it all........

 

[drstitson]

i personally believe ALL junior school children should visit an abbattoir and then make up their minds about eating meat.

 

[Storm™]

Well the thing that changed my mind about where meat came from (well I knew that but the rout it took to get to me and it's life before that) I am ashamed to say was Jamie Oliver and Hugh FW. Ashamed because it's taken so long. And it took their efforts for me to become informed. Since then it's free range chicken or not at all. And properly free range none of this RSPCA bollo*s. And all meat from the local butchers. No meat from supermarkets at all. And AMAZING to me it's actually cheaper. How can that be. And also amazing to me is that when I eat butchers meat - I'm full but Tesco meat - same meal - costs more for same weight but I put on weight rapidly even with lean meat, and yet I'm still having snacks later. Wtf. The bacon from T shrinks to a keyfob unlike the butchers and the chops from the butcher take two to carry them but the pale thin watery option from T is repellant. And pheasant from our butchers is £1.oo a brace if you pluck it yourself. £5.00 for it plucked gutted and cleaned. Which is a lovely cheap option if you want something different. So in reply to you Dr S, if your going to go that rout they should be shown the difference between supermarket and butchers meat.

 

[JamezF]

i personally believe ALL junior school children should visit an abbattoir and then make up their minds about eating meat.

I'm unconvinced it would be helpful at that age. Mind you, given the way some of the people that Hugh F-W has taken to an abattoir have reacted (ie being horrified, but continuing to eat meat whilst preferring not to think about how it gets on their plate), I'm unsure how well it would work even with people who might be expected to reason about the process more thoroughly.

Not that I think it wouldn't be a good thing in all sorts of ways if we ate less meat generally.

My own children (of junior school age) would probably be distressed by a visit to see animals being slaughtered "industrially", but they're quite comfortable with me killing chickens, rabbits, pheasant etc. and where possible help with the prep and butchering.

James

 

[Brosville]

I'd agree with Storm. I'm an unrepentant meat-eater, and think John Seymour got it right - if you're going to kill a pig you do it on the farm with a bullet through the head while he's eating, so he knows nothing about it...
That bears little resemblance to the average abattoir, and the horrors of animal transport to them, so kids should certainly be made aware of what meat is and where it comes from, but I don't think an abattoir is necessarily the right place.

If we are going to eat meat we should accord the animals humane treatment all the way - insisting on such standards as "organic" and "free range" go part of the way - and of course, supporting small local butchers is a must!

 

[hedgerow pete]

I'd agree with Storm. I'm an unrepentant meat-eater, and think John Seymour got it right - if you're going to kill a pig you do it on the farm with a bullet through the head while he's eating, so he knows nothing about it...

QUOTE]

just to repoint the first thread insert from me, i have only seen throat sliting done four times and all occasions it was goats and pigs, no cows and all four was done so quickly with such pressision and skill that they all had no distress to them or there surroundings at the time.

as for killing any thing, i prefere bullets and a single deadly shot rather than mucking the poor animal about. in my butcher book it shows for each animal the perfect pllacement of each round into the head.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think we might be surprised how much Kosher meat is in supermarkets and not labelled as such. It may be the same for Halal meat though I am not sure.
There are parts of the carcase that Jews cannot use so it appears in our shops.
I have no problem with that but I think it's really bad practice to not label it such so that an informed choice can be made whether to buy it or not.

 

[Storm™]

My partner pointed something out to me before we a avoided Tesco meat - on tesco finest lean fresh mince:

Fresh lean mince - fresh mince will be mixed with frozen mince. We contacted the supplier to ask why as this was clearly championed as finest lean mince fresh. Apparently they say you need to add frozen mince to the mix to cool it down because the minced works so fast that it heats the fresh mince up and cooks it. To stop this they add frozen to it as it's minced. I mean W T F. we're paying for something and we aren't getting it. And how long has that been frozen for ffs.

In another career a long time ago we were being fed frozen meat. The CJD scare was all across the press and colleagues began showing concern. Envronmental health were called and asked to investigate the history of our meat to ensure our risk to exposure was minimal. The results came back - do not worry. You are perfectly safe eating this meat. The danger was found to be in certain meat products that were frozen 6 (yes 6) years ago. The meat you are eating has been frozen 10!!! Years ago. We were everso relieved.

Butchers or nothing. End of.