Droppings on inspection board

[Obee1]

I have found some dark brown droppings in one corner of the inspection board. The colony is double brood with an insulation cozy over it. Looking through clear crown board the bees fill every seam. I'm reluctant to open the hive as they have been a tad feisty in the past - however if action is needed I'll be brave and open up!
Any ideas what the droppings are? Not mouse as wrong shape. Wax moth?

 

[nantmoel]

Looks like something serious to me, might not be a mouse but perhaps something smaller? Dormouse or wood mouse perhaps? How big are they - I looked up a picture of dormouse droppings and they are a little smaller than rice. Have you got mouse guards fitted?

I just looked at wax moth droppings - it could well be that, or the grubs even.

 

[Finman]

.i say wax moth, the bigger one.
Open the hive, and look how much there are moth silk or tunnels.

From bottom you see where is their site.

 

[oliver90owner]

Open it.

 

[Finman]

.
Wax moth larva moves quite quickly near zero temperature.
I had huge damages in my comb store 5 years ago.

Inspect you comb stores too frame by frame.

 

[Obee1]

Looks like something serious to me, might not be a mouse but perhaps something smaller? Dormouse or wood mouse perhaps? How big are they - I looked up a picture of dormouse droppings and they are a little smaller than rice. Have you got mouse guards fitted?

I just looked at wax moth droppings - it could well be that, or the grubs even.

If you look at the centre of the photo there is a dead varroa mite - which will give you an idea of the size - some are the same length as varroa. Some are a bit longer.

 

[Obee1]

Open it.

So, open the hive it is then! assume I hunt the for wax moth larvae and dig them out. Should I just focus on the corner above the droppings or inspect all 22 frames. Hopefully the daytime temperature is 16c again tomorrow.

 

[Obee1]

.i say wax moth, the bigger one.
Open the hive, and look how much there are moth silk or tunnels.

From bottom you see where is their site.

From this photo you can see it's on the top right of the inspection board - the front of the hive. If frame is covered in silk and tunnels should I discard it?

 

[Thymallus]

Before opening them up it might be worth getting a torch and looking through the mesh floor to see if there is anything obvious.

 

[For want of a better word]

Possibly some kind of infestation... although ...generally... a colony utilising 22 frames would be big enough to eliminate wax moth?

May be worth considering reduction of the number of frames back to 11 if you are going in anyway!

Good luck

Yeghes da

 

[nantmoel]

Cathy I found these two articles, the first being more informative -

http://www.-------------/files/library/wax_moth_l020_(data)_r2_1342860174.pdf

http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/wax_moth.html

I hope this helps

 

[masterBK]

Definitely insect droppings (as a former biologist I spent far too many hours identifying animal droppings) but not sure it is Greater wax moth droppings (although it does indeed look like them). On the second photo they appear near the edge of the insert so presumably the producer of said droppings are on the outer combs or on the outer parts of combs. At this time of year waxmoth larvae tend to stay in the comb within the warmth of the cluster (often tunneling near the wedge to finally pupate under it). Another possibility is that it is earwig poo (which looks very similar). Earwigs are more tolerant of colder temperatures and are often found in beehives feeding on debris and can be found in empty cells on outer combs or above the crownboard at this time of year.

 

[pargyle]

Definitely insect droppings ... Another possibility is that it is earwig poo (which looks very similar). Earwigs are more tolerant of colder temperatures and are often found in beehives feeding on debris and can be found in empty cells on outer combs or above the crownboard at this time of year.

Yep .. I reckon earwig poo .. I see it occasionally on my inspection boards as they tend to clear up any debris that falls through .. I've never actually see them in my hives though I understand that they are fond of overwintering in empty cells or above the crownboard where it's warm .. they are very tolerant of cold and generally not a problem to bees. But .. as RAB says.. the only way you will know for sure is to have a quick look.

Not my photo but very similar to what you have ....

 

[oliver90owner]

The weather has been warm enough. KISS principle, as usual. Tough re feisty bees. Get it done.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yep .. I reckon earwig poo ..

I thought the same.
My crown boards are host to families of them.
Like RAB says.... look inside.
Tell us what you find.

 

[Into the lions den]

The two colours make it interesting...like general black droppings but also some that are cocoon coloured.

I would give consideration to the common shrew, frequent visitors to wintering hives but do not do the same level of damage a mouse does, usually shaving the cells of adjacent combs rather than eating right through as a mouse does.

Never knowingly seen the work of a pigmy shrew but thats no reason to rule that out either. If it is either shrew you might not find the culprit at first visit as they seem to come and go and all but the tightest mouseguards do not keep them out.

The absence of 'necking' on the ends of many of the faecal pellets does however give an indication it did not come out of a mammalian back end.....so an insect origin seems more likely.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The absence of 'necking' on the ends of many of the faecal pellets does however give an indication it did not come out of a mammalian back end.....so an insect origin seems more likely.

You obviously know your sh!t Murray

 

[Obee1]

Well I went in ... But I'm none the wiser. Hive is national double brood set up cold way. Droppings are front right as you stand behind. Top box is jam packed with capped stores. Just about every cell full. Nothing untoward. No webs, slime, mould or anything odd. Bottom box I started on the droppings side. First frame empty. Next few frames had tiny patches of capped stores with some patches nectar. One frame had a full side of nectar (ivy I assume as I stopped feeding a few weeks ago). Then some frames full of capped stores. Seventh and eighth frames are full of capped brood- almost wall to wall on both sides. Ninth frame the brood had emerged apart from last few round the edges. Didn't look for eggs as bees were really nasty! Last two frames pollen and capped stores. Saw nothing on the hive floor or inside walls. The gap between inspection board and underside of mesh floor is very small. It's a tight fit so don't know that anything mouselike could live in it.

So whatever left the droppings I assume was living in the empty cells in the bottom box on the righthand side of the hive. Which is the one area the bees aren't utilising much. I swopped the one completely empty frame for a different one lest there were critters or eggs I couldn't see. I'm keeping an eye on the inspection board. There were no droppings today.
This hive has been a nightmare all year long. It made its own local queen in May. She was nasty so I squished her. bought them a bucky queen. She went awol from the nuc I made up ready for introducing her. So I bought them a carni queen. She turned drone layer almost instantly - so I squished her. Then I gave them the mated daughter of the awol bucky. By this time it was late in the year and it was only the frames full of brood I kept pinching from my nice bucky hive that keot them ticking over. However their temperament was so bad in September I wondered if they had become queenless. Not wanting to open them I decided to leave em to it. So it was a pleasant surprise to see there is quite a bit of brood in there. If their temperament does not improve come spring they are definately being requeened - again!

 

[Finman]

.
The moth larvae love to live in warmest places. And thet collect together.
I doupt that live in lower box.

 

[Tremyfro]

Oh Obee1.... You do have adventures with your bees. Mine seem very humdrum in comparison! I have a few ladybirds in the top...above the clear crown boards of some of my hives and a few weeks ago we had earwigs around the top too.
Perhaps when you open your Mean Green Daughters/ Bucky Daughters hive next year they will have turned over a new leaf in the manners that a town hive should have!