Demaree pick up

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Very gracious of you to admit you were wrong

 

[Finman]

Very gracious of you to admit you were wrong

I saw Pagden method name 3 months ago first time in my life.

I have nursed my bees without knowing basics of beekeeping. Sorry.

 

[Finman]

Very gracious of you to admit you were wrong

I am wrong all the time. So I have seen in this forum.

 

[masterBK]

Samuel Simmins 1886 “ If the queen is separated from the brood before natural queen-cells have been started, the colony is forced back into the state which it had in early spring, and will not swarm before completing its brood nest for a second time.”

George W Demaree writing in The American Bee Journal 1892.
"I begin with the strongest colonies and transfer the combs containing brood to an upper story above the queen excluder.

One comb containing some unsealed brood and eggs is left in the brood chamber as a start for the queen. I fill out the brood chamber with empty combs. Full frames of foundation may be used in the absence of drawn combs.
The colony thus has all of its brood and the queen, but the queen has a new brood nest below the excluder, while the combs of brood are in the super.

In twenty- one days all the brood will be hatched out of the combs above the excluder, and the bees will begin to hatch in the queen’s chamber below the excluder, so a continuous succession of young bees is sustained”

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[Finman]

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Is there anything what Demaree did when he saw queen cells in the hive?

In those days bees were earger to swarm. Artificial insemination begun after second World War and that was real start to good beebreeding. Non swarming bee strains have been important goal among professional beekeepers.

But even nonswarming bee strains swarm and beeks use then AS. It depends on year and weathers how much they swarm.

 

[Finman]

.
I wonder, how many beekeepers in UK make pure blooded Demaree and put the queen lay into empty brood box and lift recent brood frames over excluder. Beeks are so afraid of douple brood.

Idea is to force the hive to draw new combs. That is one secret of preventive swarming control. Another secret is that your bee strain is not eager to swarm.

If colony has normal swarming instincts, they swarm because it is the main purpose of life.

The worst thing is to destroy colony build up that it is rippen to catch a good honey yield. If you split the colony, it takes again 6 weeks that hive is able to forage good yield.

And good splitting needs a laying new queen. It does not mean a start of emercengy queen cell rearing.

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[jenkinsbrynmair]

Snelgrove on Demarree method:

This is the most widely practised methods of swarm prevention.......................it is often imperfectly described in bee literature with the result that many failures occur on account of the neglect of essential details................ the underlying priciple of the method is as follows:-if brood is removed from the vicinity of the queen and placed over an excluder in the part of the hive remote from her, whilst at the same time she is given ample additional laying room, swarming is discouraged........................... it is useless to attemt this method on a stock which has already developed queen cells in preparation for swarming. In such case the bees will continue to rear young queens from eggs in the lower box and will ultimately defeat the "every seventh day" beekeeper

Written in 1934 - but then, probably he had actually corresponded with Mr Demarree who had only died nineteen years previously

 

[Firefly]

As although I use a version of this method I provide the Queen with almost all drawn frames in the new box and believe a box of foundation is wrong.

Could you explain why? Having no drawn comb I was happy with, I used foundation (and I did leave 2 frames of brood with the queen in the bottom box), and 6 days on they seem to be drawing comb pretty well. Just wondering if I might encounter some problem I've not thought of. I fully accept I'm limiting my OSR honey yield and getting wax instead - maybe no bad thing

They have even started to draw the couple of frames of foundation with which I topped up the top box

Last year I had trouble with this colony. Despite 2 supers, the hive was in full swarm mode by 17 April. I decided to take a firm hand this year. Fingers crossed

 

[Finman]

. Fingers crossed

You will have fat brood frames from rape field.
That is most valuable for future summer.
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[Eyeman]

Never having knowing performed a Demaree. I'm a keen Bailey comb exchanger and have noticed that these colonies rarely go on to swarm.
Thinking about the principles involved when performing a Bailey exchange where the queen gets separated from the brood by a queen excluder. Has anybody used a Bailey comb exchange as swarm prevention?

 

[Finman]

Thinking about the principles involved when performing a Bailey exchange where the queen gets separated from the brood by a queen excluder. Has anybody used a Bailey comb exchange as swarm prevention?

Do you destroy brood frames?

 

[Eyeman]

Hi
Yes old brood frames removed once brood has emerged in 3 weeks.
With a Bailey you don't get queen cells on the old brood box but with a Demaree you usually seen emergency cells in the old top box

 

[Finman]

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Guys are playing too much with those different name methods.
First of all swarming habits depend on the stock what you have and on the time of year.

Some stocks swarm from one box size, and some grow to 4-5 boxes before they get idea to rear queen cells.

I do not like at all, if the colony swarms during dandelion bloom. It is really too swarmy.

Of course you do all expandions what needed.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Hi
Yes old brood frames removed once brood has emerged in 3 weeks.
With a Bailey you don't get queen cells on the old brood box but with a Demaree you usually seen emergency cells in the old top box

Yes, you then of course destroy the emergency cells and rotate the empty combs to the bottom box, and brood back to the top, always giving the queen plenty of laying space and reliving congestion in the lower box, this rotation can be done several times during the season... with your method how many bailey comb changes per colony do you do a season.

 

[Eyeman]

with your method how many bailey comb changes per colony do you do a season.

Not my method!
Was only noticing that the Bailey exchange may also contribute to preemptive swarm control.
Was asking if anyone else had noticed the same?

 

[Finman]

.
Was asking if anyone else had noticed the same?

It is well known that drawing foundations in early summer reduces swarming. Nothing to do with Bailey. Basic knowledge in beekeeping. But if strain is swarmy, nothing stop them.

Many professionals in Finland do this way when they have douple brood. Third box they give as foundation box and to lowest. Bees draw foundations when colony starts to expand.
Then again hives need almost every week one box more when masses of brood start to emerge.

I have noticed that bees are not willing to draw foundations in spring. I give couple of box foundations in main flow. I can say that my hives does not swarm in the middle of main yield. It is rare. However I must inspect them. If hive is too full honey, ofcourse it swarms.

 

[YorkshireBees]

Could you explain why? Having no drawn comb I was happy with, I used foundation (and I did leave 2 frames of brood with the queen in the bottom box), and 6 days on they seem to be drawing comb pretty well. Just wondering if I might encounter some problem I've not thought of. I fully accept I'm limiting my OSR honey yield and getting wax instead - maybe no bad thing

They have even started to draw the couple of frames of foundation with which I topped up the top box

Last year I had trouble with this colony. Despite 2 supers, the hive was in full swarm mode by 17 April. I decided to take a firm hand this year. Fingers crossed

At the end of the day it depends on your own reason for performing a demaree.
If you want the colony to buildup strong and fast then providing the queen with an almost full box of drawn comb means she can lay as fast as she wants (provided the foraging force can fetch enough nectar / pollen).
Using foundation will slow them down as the queen has limited laying space (which can also trigger swarm mode).

I'm no expert in the procedure but do what works best for my own situation.

Also I learnt the hard way with a couple of colonies that if they are in swarm mode or close to that transferring ANY brood into the new lower box can give them chance to build QC's and be off! As the idea is to simulate (fool) the Queen and flying bees into thinking they have swarmed it doesn't make sense if you transfer brood. How many swarms arrive in a new nest with brood?

If you have no drawn comb that you are happy to use then ofc foundation is the only alternative. When I asked a semi-pro local beek about this he just said stick a BB on as a super to start with and then extract it to generate new BB comb.

 

[Finman]

.

Also I learnt the hard way with a couple of colonies that if they are in swarm mode or close to that transferring ANY brood into the new lower box can give them chance to build QC's and be off! .

They are already in swarm mode. Tranferring a brood frame is not a reason for swarming impulse.

 

[Firefly]

At the end of the day it depends on your own reason for performing a demaree.
If you want the colony to buildup strong and fast then providing the queen with an almost full box of drawn comb means she can lay as fast as she wants (provided the foraging force can fetch enough nectar / pollen).
Using foundation will slow them down as the queen has limited laying space (which can also trigger swarm mode).

I'm no expert in the procedure but do what works best for my own situation.

Also I learnt the hard way with a couple of colonies that if they are in swarm mode or close to that transferring ANY brood into the new lower box can give them chance to build QC's and be off! As the idea is to simulate (fool) the Queen and flying bees into thinking they have swarmed it doesn't make sense if you transfer brood. How many swarms arrive in a new nest with brood?

If you have no drawn comb that you are happy to use then ofc foundation is the only alternative. When I asked a semi-pro local beek about this he just said stick a BB on as a super to start with and then extract it to generate new BB comb.

Thanks, that's helpful. I got QCs in the top BB, which I half expected. Have cut them out and transferred one to a nuc. No sign of QC in the bottom box after a week, so I hope I'm in the clear as they have drawn her some new comb

My logic was that a couple of (not full) frames of brood at least gave her somewhere to go for a couple of days while they built more comb, and that swarming and building comb don't usually go together

Still learning

 

[YorkshireBees]

Thanks, that's helpful. I got QCs in the top BB, which I half expected. Have cut them out and transferred one to a nuc. No sign of QC in the bottom box after a week, so I hope I'm in the clear as they have drawn her some new comb

My logic was that a couple of (not full) frames of brood at least gave her somewhere to go for a couple of days while they built more comb, and that swarming and building comb don't usually go together

Still learning

You should see emergency queen cells in the top box as they are now separated from the queen. Assuming you have enough supers on to create the separation.

You can get away with transferring her on a frame of brood, in fact the first demaree I do on a hive in the season, I tend to transfer just the frame she is on if I have the timing right.

Today I looked at one colony and they were on 7 frames of brood but had already started queencells with lavae in so she was transferred without brood!

At the end of the day through trial and error you will find what works best for you.