Considering double brood

[beenovice]

Following my recent post "removing stores" I have been having a think. My national brood is running out of space due to there being quite a bit of stores. I was considering removing some. However I am now looking at the merits of double brooding. I have the boxes and frames but only foundation.
My plan for the year is to try and increase. Would double brooding now lend itself to splitting later in the year. Are there any downsides in terms of honey production?
Does it sound like a good idea?

 

[Aledrinker]

Double brood - Go for it.

I did that late last year and now have 1 jumbo poly brood with a cedar national on top expecting big things this year and will split as soon as i see queen cells - the benefit of double brood is that all I will have to do to split/artificial swarm will be to move cedar hive with old queen brood and stores to new site and put a load of fresh frames in with a new super to give the impression she has swarmed - I know it won't be that easy but at least I have a plan unlike previous years.

 

[oliver90owner]

Just simply double brooding on a whim is sheer guesswork and can be counter-productive. You adca second brood only if they need the extra brooding space. A queen which is no more prolific than a single box will provide no benefit whatsoever on a bouble brood.

Many running WBC and Nationals ran a brood and a half in the past (and some still do). They chose the half because that arrangement was the optimum at the time.

When the box is well filled with bees and the brood box is getting towards full of brood, then one can add a super expecting a surplus of nectar to begin honey storage for the season, perhaps along with bruising stores to encourage the bees to move it up. If the brood is going to be more than filled with brood, you can run the disk of early swarming or reduce the risk of swarming by providing more brooding space.

14 x 12 is equivalent to about a 'brood and a half'. That is one option. Brood and a half is another; double brood yet another, but needs consideration for the colony as to when added. A large empty box over a small colony in cold weather with little income will slow their development. Another alternative later in the season (warmer and usually with a flow on) is the demaree - effectively a second deep box added, but kept separate - has the same effect of reducing the swarming risk.

Sooo, double brooding now can be an impediment for splitting later. Consideration of the bees' requirements is always paramount before just doing something on a whim. Think. When you split for increase, you want the maximum number of bees ...

If you are not squeamish about extracting honey from brooded frames, your decision may be different to someone who is. With double brood there will be more honey crop stored there later in the season.

Splitting also needs to be considered carefully. Increase of 100% or more? Taking away half or more of your bees would likely much reduce the crop from that colony. Time of splitting can be relevant, too. To late and wasp attack can be a problem or sufficient build up for winter may be limited. So decisions of full colony by winter or to take nucs through needs consideration.

I only decide on the conditions at the time. If too weak, they are not split - and that might just be too weak to get a good crop from an imminent flow.

Buying in new mated queens will change all the considerations above, of course.

So , as you may well have guessed by now, the answer to your question is: It depends, but look at all the options.

RAB

 

[enrico]

I would suggest it all depends on how confident you are with your bees. Double brood can be a challenge, by the time you get to inspecting the second brood box you may have loads of angry flying bees. Some of us who run double brood or brood and a half do not inspect the bottom box as a general rule. We find that most queen cells will be in the top box or between the two, however that is not always the case!
As far as honey production goes, it can be a help as you will doubtless have a larger hive, if you only have one hive now is the time to swap to 14 x 12 broods, you can always use your old brood box's in place of supers! I have kept bees for many years but if I was starting again I would go down the larger brood box route rather than double brood.
It does make artificial swarms easier.....can I suggest you have a read about the demaree method... It may fit in nicely with the way you keep your bees!
E
Sorry repeated what RAB said but we crossed in the post!!!

 

[oliver90owner]

I might add to Enrico, or perhaps say that instead of using current deeps as supers, my progression to 14 x 12 was simply by adding an ~90mm eke fixed to the bottom of deeps. I only have one non-converted full sized 14 x 12 timber box.

RAB

 

[enrico]

Just out of interest what did you do with your old bb frames then?
E

 

[Heather]

I have personally done similar, and use standard BB frames occasionally in the box to encourage drone cells below the base bar. More drones and more opportunity for varroa assessment.

 

[oliver90owner]

Just out of interest what did you do with your old bb frames then?

I scrapped them, eventually. Some bits used for SN1s. Most boxes were purchased as flat pack and built with an eke added (I still have a couple unused ekes, but I doubt i will ever need them for new boxes), so no frame changes involved for a lot of them.

RAB

 

[YorkshireBees]

I would suggest it all depends on how confident you are with your bees. Double brood can be a challenge, by the time you get to inspecting the second brood box you may have loads of angry flying bees. Some of us who run double brood or brood and a half do not inspect the bottom box as a general rule. We find that most queen cells will be in the top box or between the two, however that is not always the case!

I got a tip from the RBI lates last year. If you want to inspect a double brood then lift of the top brood first and inspect the bottom box. That way the bees aren't as disturb in the bottom box when you inspect, replace the top box and inspect that one. If ofc you want to inspect both boxes!

.....can I suggest you have a read about the demaree method... It may fit in nicely with the way you keep your bees!

I use the demaree method and once you get the hang of it I find it works
well for me.

Also I might add that adding a 2nd BB of foundation will NOT increase the space available to the queen for laying. I always say to new beekeepers that drawn comb (BB or super) is like gold dust!

 

[kevrhcfag]

Well as relative newbie (this will be our 3rd year), this is what we have found we like, but as you have discovered by now everybody has their own likes and dislikes so its what works best for you.

It really depends what you want, what your bees need to stay put / room. Most of ours are on double brood, we put some 14 x 12 in which I don't like so won't be going down that route anymore.

Double brood can be a pain sometimes particularly with a strong hive, don't believe they don't have queen cells in the bottom box, the bees (ours at least) don't seem to have read the books. It helps greatly if the queen is clearly marked and I now prefer clipped, there are a lot of bees in the 2 boxes with a decent strain of bee.

The stronger the hive the more honey you get, however you also run a greater risk of swarming, if that happens you will lose production. If you want to increase and split there are various methods. Personally I would replace a couple of frames with foundation to get your present hive to draw it out so you have comb for the other box. I do this throughout the season particularly on strong hives. I tend to put 12 frames in a new brood box, get them to draw it and remove one before it gets too tight. Then there is the deep end approach (thats us really) of sticking on another bb with foundation in once they really start to get going, although I would shift a couple of frames from the bottom box into the top. As for the split, well there is a fair chance you will need to do an AS, if you have a decent queen and good weather as we have found single brood isn't really big enough if the queen is decent (thanks HM) and you are not taking brood out. If that is the route you take you will end up with 2 weaker hives and miss out on brood for a while and have to wait and see if the queen gets mated, how well and with what. Or you can split earlier and buy in a queen when available. Or there is demarree / snelgrove.

There are so many choices, no real rights or wrongs, depends on what kit you have, what your priorities are. Whatever you choose you can bet that you wish you had chosen differently at somepoint for a reason you didn't think of at the time. Its fun this beekeeping lark.

 

[Travelator]

If you have one colony to start with, running double brood seems like a good step on the way to splitting later. It gives you a chance to get extra brood comb drawn by a strong colony, which might be important.

However, your honey production will definitely suffer if you do a split. You can't get lots of drawn comb AND lots of new bees AND lots of honey all at the same time.