Confusion about how to Nadir a National or wbc hive.

[Speybee]

I heard the the term to Nadir a hive for the first time on this forum.
I looked up the Google to find out more, and it seems it was something for Warre hives which are out of my sphere as I use ‘standard size’ brood and a half National for brood nest and brood and a half for the wbc.

From the forum to Nadir a hive, I gathered it was putting the uncapped honey box under the brood nest directly over the mesh floor, for the bees to shift the stores upwards into the brood nest.
Is this correct? Or am I totally confused?

From my limited understanding of the Nadir hive, the configuration would be Mesh Floor, Uncapped honey box, shallow brood nest box, deep nest box, crown board, roof.
I would be worried that there might be spoiling of the honey box with bits of brood etc should the queenbee take a notion to lay in that Nadir honey box or does a QE go above the uncapped honey box which is under the brood nest?
Advice welcomed.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You're right - to nadir is to put a shallow (or any fresh box really) under the whole hive setup, it's how you are supposed to add a new box to a Warree hive. In fact, that was the first time I heard the term during a talk given by the late Pam Gregory where Warre hives were mentioned.
it comes from the Arabic Nazir meaning counterpart and has come to mean the opposite of Zenith, or the lowest part.

I would be worried that there might be spoiling of the honey box with bits of brood etc should the queenbee take a notion to lay in that Nadir honey box or does a QE go above the uncapped honey box which is under the brood nest?

having had brood in a honey super in the past does not 'spoil' it, it can still be used for honey - just don't extract it with any brood remaining!
In fact most years I extract from previously brooded frames as, during a Demarree, the old brood box eventually gets filled with honey.

 

[Speybee]

You're right - to nadir is to put a shallow (or any fresh box really) under the whole hive setup, it's how you are supposed to add a new box to a Warree hive. In fact, that was the first time I heard the term during a talk given by the late Pam Gregory where Warre hives were mentioned.
it comes from the Arabic Nazir meaning counterpart and has come to mean the opposite of Zenith, or the lowest part.


having had brood in a honey super in the past does not 'spoil' it, it can still be used for honey - just don't extract it with any brood remaining!
In fact most years I extract from previously brooded frames as, during a Demarree, the old brood box eventually gets filled with honey.

Thanks JBM for that explanation as I’m always of the opinion best to ask if you’re not sure.
I am going to have to read up on the Demarree method as I’ve heard if it but not used as to make increase, I just look for the frames with the purple tipped queen cells and make up a Nuc to cart off 3 miles away.
I just let the first queen who has hatched tear down her competitors cells despite having heard this can be a risky strategy as after handbags at dawn the pair of queens end up dead.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I just let the first queen who has hatched tear down her competitors cells despite having heard this can be a risky strategy as after handbags at dawn the pair of queens end up dead.

Another belief which is slowly edging towards room 101 - yes, the first queen out will sting the other still contained if the workers let her (in fact, they also thin down the cell walls to make it easier for her) apparently 'fights' between two newly emerged queens are carefully stage managed by the workers to ensure their chosen queen wins.
The biggest worry you have is losing a prime swarm with the first virgin out - but again, highly unlikely in a nuc.

 

[Speybee]

Another belief which is slowly edging towards room 101 - yes, the first queen out will sting the other still contained if the workers let her (in fact, they also thin down the cell walls to make it easier for her) apparently 'fights' between two newly emerged queens are carefully stage managed by the workers to ensure their chosen queen wins.
The biggest worry you have is losing a prime swarm with the first virgin out - but again, highly unlikely in a nuc.

I don’t quite understand the last sentence about losing a prime swarm, as I had been thinking that a prime swarm was always headed by the old queen who was not a Virgin?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don’t quite understand the last sentence about losing a prime swarm, as I had been thinking that a prime swarm was always headed by the old queen who was not a Virgin?

A prime swarm is the first swarm issuing. It can be headed by a virgin if the original queen was clipped, lost and the bees returned to the hive

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

or, as in a 'split' or similar, there's only virgins there

 

[Speybee]

A prime swarm is the first swarm issuing. It can be headed by a virgin if the original queen was clipped, lost and the bees returned to the hive

That is interesting to find out.
I did not know about queen being a Virgin if was queen clipped.
I don’t clip queens because I’m a bit cack handed, so I leave them be, and any swarms, casts issuing Ive managed with Mr Speybee to collect and hive ( bar a second cast that absconded this season from my pain in the rear ‘swarmy hive’)

 

[Erichalfbee]

That is interesting to find out.
I did not know about queen being a Virgin if was queen clipped.
I don’t clip queens because I’m a bit cack handed, so I leave them be, and any swarms, casts issuing Ive managed with Mr Speybee to collect and hive ( bar a second cast that absconded this season from my pain in the rear ‘swarmy hive’)

If you have a clipped queen and the colony swarm and you don’t find her she often perishes. That’s what I meant. Not that she’s a virgin. I suppose she would be if you clipped her before mating though