British National 11 Frame Hive & 5-6 Frame Nucleus

[Insy]

Hello all,

Im new to this beekeeping thing i haven't yet applied for the local bee associations but i have recently purchased the updated Ted Hooper Book on Guide to Bees & Honey plus i have borrowed about 5-6 books from my grandad .

I have downloaded and printed many plans ranging from National, Langstroth, WBC and im not much of a woodworker but i love a challenge .

My grandad is popping me down some second hand stuff which i will be scrubbing with water and soda crystals aswell as scorching the stuff to steralise them.

I have 2 questions

1) I cannot find Construction plans for 5 or 6 frame nucleus hives/boxes anywhere at all, i found langstroth 5 frame nucleus designs will these be ok to build and use if you will be transfering to a national bee hive? If not does anyone know where i could find some british national 5-6 frame nucleus plans?

2) For the 11 Frame British National BeeHive plans on BeeSource how many sheets of exterior grade plywood would i need to make each bee hive excluding the frame, the sheets are sized WBP Exterior Ply 2440x1220x18mm. I know red western cedar is betetr to sued but as im new i just want something i can play aruond with and have fun and aslong as i treat yearly or ever 2 years i should be able to maintain the hive.

Any other advice on building these i would love, i plan on buying a Dovetail Jig for box joints and using a router but i will be doing a far bit of testing ill probably test it on mdf haha as thats cheap and i have loads about before i start cutting up my plywood

Thanks
Regards
Ben

 

[plumberman]

Try this chap for plans and cutting sheets (there is a deep national nucleus plan)

http://s64.photobucket.com/albums/h187/adamsm/Plans/

Also check out the SBKA website download section - there are plans for standard hives there.

Above also has cutting plans, but 2400*1200 easily sufficient for one hive.

How you make the boxes up all depends on your skill and enthusiasm. Dovetail joints etc whilst very pleasing to look at are hard to get right and take a lot of time to set up. I tend to use butt joints now and so far boxes have held up well.

In respect of the timber Western Red Cedar is very expensive and not readily available, so like you I use exterior ply. You will find that whilst 18mm is close to the timber width of the original plans it produces a very heavy hive, and I now use 12mm thickness, but keep the internal dimensions the same.

HTH and have fun.

 

[rae]

Any other advice on building these i would love, i plan on buying a Dovetail Jig for box joints and using a router but i will be doing a far bit of testing ill probably test it on mdf haha as thats cheap and i have loads about before i start cutting up my plywood

Two things:

- dove tails are a really, really painful way of building hives. If you're building nationals, then 4 bits of ply glued together (decent glue) work fine. If you rout slots to fit the narrower sections to, the boxes are immensely strong - I'll happily use a ply 14x12 as a step, and I'm not exactly light. Dove tails and ply....are also not very good news. The ply will probably shatter all over the place.

- MDF is horrible, horrible stuff. Practice away, but do make sure you have lung protection - decent extraction if inside, and a (good) face mask if outside.

Also, a nuc is simply a narrow hive, just cut the standard plans in half.

 

[Flatters]

I used plans very similar to the above that were sent to me by another forum member. I used 18mm ply and a table saw to make the boxes. A 607x1804mm piece gave me 2 national brodd chambers and one super. The rails I made from 12mm ply. 2mm less than recommended but I was assured there were no issues with that. I just use but joints since I have seen many say that glue and screws are good enough.

I made a Nuc out of 12mm ply again using the above plans and that went OK apart from a slight assembly problem but that is down to me rushing it (I had 3 hours to get wood, cut and make the nuc as I was picking up a swarm in a cardboard box the following morning.) Still usable and it has a small collected swarm in at the moment.

Ply is definately the cheaper option. I have bought 4 Bees on a budget hives but from now on I am going to stick to making my own from ply

 

[Insy]

Thanks All

Those plans link above use 8MM plywood so ill use 12mm instead of 18mm for the nucleus makes it a tad cheaper aswell pack of 2 2440x1200 sheets £45 should be able to make a few of them hopefully.

You'd think there would be a video showing how to build a nucleus on youtube but no such thing so meh ill just do it my own way

I think ill treat all wood before i assemble it so the mood inside the joints/fittings will also get treatment a little.

 

[Jimmy]

Hedgerow Pete of this parish has a youtube video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo2QyyBteJY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo2QyyBteJY[/ame]

There used to be some really clear plans on the other site (RIP, no need to speak ill of the dead etc etc) Hopefully some kind soul will have them and be able to post them elsewhere.

 

[drex]

Make sure you take the thickness of the ply into account when cutting, so that the Internal dimensions of the box remain the same. I learnt the hard way!

 

[Insy]

For my first DIY nucleus and maybe hive i was going to purchase the frame for the first hive to use as a measurement for inside for best accuracy

 

[Insy]

Ok nice tutorial gives me a little insight how to do things only thing i have a question about is the flooring and frames since im new i dont really know how these work.

1) How do you do the flooring of one of these nucleus boxes if you wish to add a varroa mesh?? I havent a clue as plans dont show this
2) The nucleus plans im looking are are called "bs standard nuc (14 by 12) with top and bottom bee space to make crown board flat 8mm ply" liek is aid for the first hive and nucleus i wish to but my frames precut ill either assemble them myself or order them asembled, my questions on this are which frame would i use for a 14 by 12 nucleus box and would they just sit on top of rails or would u cut tongue and grooves into the rails so they fit nice and snug and dont move?

Sorry if these are daft questions i dont know much until beginning of next month until my grandad comes down and gives me a tutorial

 

[MuswellMetro]

Ok nice tutorial gives me a little insight how to do things only thing i have a question about is the flooring and frames since im new i dont really know how these work.

1) How do you do the flooring of one of these nucleus boxes if you wish to add a varroa mesh?? I havent a clue as plans dont show this
2) The nucleus plans im looking are are called "bs standard nuc (14 by 12) with top and bottom bee space to make crown board flat 8mm ply" liek is aid for the first hive and nucleus i wish to but my frames precut ill either assemble them myself or order them asembled, my questions on this are which frame would i use for a 14 by 12 nucleus box and would they just sit on top of rails or would u cut tongue and grooves into the rails so they fit nice and snug and dont move?

Sorry if these are daft questions i dont know much until beginning of next month until my grandad comes down and gives me a tutorial

no question is daft,

floor: in a Nuc i just cut some varroa mesh floor to the same size of a ply floor then staple it on as a base instead then add two reinforcing bits of wood ( to allow me to put a card under to monitor varroa drop)

14x12 frames are deeper than a standard frame and are called 14x12 self spacing Hoffman frames ,a 14x12 box is between by 87 to 89mm deeper, if you want to use standard frames make a brood box 225mm deep rather than 312mm/ 314mm deep 9 using the Nuc box plan just take off 89mm as nucs are deeper as the floor is integral)

standard frames are called DN1( requires spacers) or DN5 (self spacing Hoffman)

normally brood boxes have just rails or a 45 cut top and if hoffman frames are used then these are self spacing on DN1 you need plastic spacers

honey boxes or supers are 150mm deep and again various frames fit call SN1 ( spacers), SN4 ( hoffman self spacing) or Manley frames ( self spacing), if SN1 frames are you choice ( cheepest) then rather than use spacers you can use instead of runners a metal strips with to hold the frames

google Cushman Bees National Frames

 

[Insy]

Ok the varrao mesh thing now makes PERFECT! sense thanks

Ok so what would u recommend self spacing frames or required spacer frames? i think self spacing would be easier but im a newbie so i dont know much

 

[MuswellMetro]

Ok the varrao mesh thing now makes PERFECT! sense thanks

Ok so what would u recommend self spacing frames or required spacer frames? i think self spacing would be easier but im a newbie so i dont know much

DN5 (which are hoffman style) frames in a standard Brood box or 14x12 (hoffman:they are only made in Hoffman) in an extra deep box

your bees will normally come in a standard frame 5 frame Nuc which will just be a plastic or chipboard box not reusable (may be returnable), Essex beeks also uses commercial boxes so be aware of what you buy fits, you can fit standard DN1 or DN5 into a 14x12 box just more space underneath which the bees biuld wild comb, over the year you can rota out the DN frames and add new 14x12 frames ( 1/3 of your frames should be repalce each year any way to keep them fresh)

in your super it is up to you too many views, Can of worms issue, each keeper think his is best , i use the cheapest is SN1 ( straight sides) plus wide plastic spacers,

here is my Nuc plans and photos, the grey box is standard brood made from 18mm recover floorboards and the cedar box is Extra Deep 14x12 ( roof and 14x12 box by TOM BICK on here)

notice the extra closing bits ,warning sign and carry ropes on the nuc so i can transport in the car full of bees then sling it over my shoulder and walk it across a field to my out apiary

 

[Insy]

Thanks that makes things look a lot more simple, i will purchase my first set of frame as a rough guide to make sure measurements are correct inside the hives/nucleus and to give me a rough idea on how to make them. After that ill attempt to make them also, could u possible post some pictures of the inside of a empty one if you have one lying about

Thanks
Regards
Ben

 

[Insy]

So been looking about for best prices on things managed to find galvanised varroa mesh 450mmx450mm x 4 pieces for just £13 best prices ive seen for them that will be perfect i could get 2 hive bottoms and 4 nucleus bottoms out of that

Just a question the wooden base and the varroa mesh should be fixed down, its the varroa board/card/paper that should be able to slide in and out for regular checks or does the mesh have to be removable also.

thanks

 

[Insy]

After spending several days phoning and driving around timber merchants and DIY stores i was getting really frustrating that when phoning them up they were telling me different price on phone to what they were telling me in store when i got there

I tried the last one and hit jacket Exterior Plywood there best stuff not the cheap exterior plywood looks sooo nice they wants 50p per cut and £13-£14+vat per 8'x4'x12mm sheet delivery £10 pound

So i ordered 2 sheets for now dlivered with 7 cuts for total of £43, if i worked it out correct and they dont screw up the cuts i should get 6 nucleus from these 2 sheets not bad at all for price of wood.

My only concern is that when telling them what cuts i wanted and giving them drawings with measurements on them they still understand what the hell i was asking :O so im a bit worried that my plywood will turn up all wrong sizes and i wont be able to do anything with it. So ill have to order more cause no doubt theyll refund or replace it with right cuts.

So delivery is tommorow so im praying and hoping all if well otherwise i dont know what im going to do lol.

Ive also ordered 450mm x 450mm varroa galvanised varroa mesh off meshcompany 4 sheets of that screws i have and i have tons of no nails and other wood glues in my house from other little projects, all i really need to do is purchase some galvansied sheets if not to much in price or roof felt.

I will keep this thread updated when i start with progress pictures

thanks
regards
ben

 

[Insy]

To the beekeepers out there that know there stuff what you think of the measurements i believe there just right for a 6 14x12 Frame National Nucleus

SORRY THE PICS UPSIDE DOWN I USED THE BLACKBERRY

What you think?

 

[Insy]

Progress i thought screw it ill just throw myself into it

Thinks still left to do:

1) flooring (waiting on the varroa mesh in post)
2) Little ledges in the lid to lift it higher so feeder can fit under lid
3) Treat the external and internal wood
4) felt the roof
5) Tidy the box up so it looks neat

But this is how it looks atm

might i just add not bad cutting from a ***** with a hand saw lol

whats u think i know its not perfect but im sure it will do good

 

[VEG]

Bees wont mind but looking ok. I made my first one by borrowing one and copying the sizes. Only later noticed it was a 12 x 14 nuc lol. Rip saw soon sorted out the size difference.

 

[Insy]

Yes this is a 14x12 nuc box and i think its 6 frames reason being cause im a beginner would be nice to try and get as much time practicing with these first before transferring to a hive

I have about 3-4 more to build i think i went a bit OTT on the wood but meh theyll come in handy 1 day

 

[Insy]

Ok a fair amount of progress since last post

- 1st nuc box pretty much finished need to wait on frames and need to cut a hole in crown board and the entrance for bees to fly in and out .
- I cut rest of wood and have enough wood for 4 more Nuc boxes definate if i get cheeky i can push for another ( assembling the wood is my next job)
- Grandad popped down sunday with his trailer :O he popped me at least 4 hives and some extra of stuff with frames with some freshly draw comb on some frames and some old combs, he said theyve come from him and his mates so i trust them. Im going to scorch the inside of everything with blowtorch adn scrap it clean and with frames ill remove all manky comb and treat them with the water and soda crystals method i think as scorching thin frames could split wood or so damage.
- Also gave me beesuit and a smoker for now.

He said once i repairs and cleaned the hives he's given me and found a place to put them permanant he's then going to get him and his mate to box up 3 bee colonies in nucs to bring down to place in hives :O maybe a little time before they come down as i have alot of stuff to do now i have my reading my nuc building and my hives repairing and treating then after ill build some of my own hives as i would like some 14 x 12 brood chambers as my nucs are 14 x 12 .

ill try get up a picture of the finished nuc for you to inspect in next couple of days , not done to bad for a handsaw and a drill

ben