Best orientation of Ashford-type feeder

[ugcheleuce]

G'day everyone

An experienced beekeeper told me that it's better for wintering preparation if the Ashford-type syrup feeder is placed with its entrance over the hive entrance (i.e. towards the front), instead of towards the rear. (The red "x" shows the entrance position.)

I'm curious as to whether you have the same wisdom and/or what your opinions on this are. Do you think it would make any difference? Let's assume for this question that the hive is perfectly level and that the feeder will never be allowed to run dry.

Thanks
Samuel

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I suppose his rationale is that the cluster migrates to the front of the hive and the stores behind so the source is always above the bees - don't use ashforths meself but I have some 'English' feeders (why can't they attribute it to the person who made it popular - Br Adam?) with the feed cone at one end and it didn't really matter whether the cone was at the front, back or sides it didn't seem to bother the bees.

 

[Madge]

Usually the idea is not to over-winter the bees with a syrup as they might be too cold to climb up the ramp to reach the syrup (except for poly hives where they might be OK).

But generally, I think, if on solid floors, people tilt a hive forward to allow condensation to flow out of the entrance. So, in such a case, by having the ramp above the entrance means the liquid flows towards the ramp and the bees will have access to all the liquid. Also, if the basin becomes empty (and the hive was level, but sloping to the front) and some bees then find their way into the empty basin, they are unlikely to drown.

 

[For want of a better word]

G'day everyone

An experienced beekeeper told me that it's better for wintering preparation if the Ashford-type syrup feeder is placed with its entrance over the hive entrance (i.e. towards the front), instead of towards the rear. (The red "x" shows the entrance position.)

I'm curious as to whether you have the same wisdom and/or what your opinions on this are. Do you think it would make any difference? Let's assume for this question that the hive is perfectly level and that the feeder will never be allowed to run dry.

Thanks
Samuel

Ditch them and use Miller feeders... or is it Millar feeders... either way seems to work with them... but it does depend on if frames are cold or warm way.... pity that old Grayling has been sent to the smoker... she would have been all over me like a rash for being such a pedant!

Yeghes da

 

[ugcheleuce]

Usually the idea is not to over-winter the bees with a syrup as they might be too cold to climb up the ramp to reach the syrup (except for poly hives where they might be OK).

Something went lost in translation -- these feeders are used for winter preparation, not for overwintering itself.

 

[Madge]

Something went lost in translation ...

My mistake - sorry.

 

[For want of a better word]

Something went lost in translation -- these feeders are used for winter preparation, not for overwintering itself.

One UK suppler ( ?Mais...?) makes a feeder of this type for their polystyrene hive, and suggest that it can be left on overwinter as has insulation properties.
On reflection I do not see that the positioning of the feeder slot, front or back makes a lot of difference... Autumn feeding with 10 liters of 2:1 ( 20 kilo sugar 10 kilo water at 23.765 degrees centigrade to keep our Finnie fiend happy) gets taken down in 3 days max!!

Yeghes da

 

[Millet]

I'm clueless but i don't like them through fear of drowning bees,upturned pickled onion jars with a load of holes in the lid does it for me (small scale) at this moment in life , if i use 9 jars i can get 8 litres in there and top any up as required.

 

[ugcheleuce]

I don't like them through fear of drowning bees...

Very few bees drown in them, as long as the bees can't reach the large reservoir. Sometimes the feeder is accidentally sold without the plastic or wiring shield, and if you use it without the shield, many many bees will drown.

It does depend on if frames are cold or warm way...

We keep our bees cold way. It saves space in the apiary, particularly if you have hives that are not square, e.g. 6-frame hives. A warm way 6-frame hive would take up just as much space as a warm way 11-frame hive, after all.

One UK supplier... makes a feeder of this type for their polystyrene hive, and suggest that it can be left on overwinter as has insulation properties.

I suppose if the hive was not under a roof, the feeder would definitely have insulation properties, if you close it off (e.g. by placing plastic sheeting between the hive and the feeder, after feeding is done).

By having the ramp above the entrance means the liquid flows towards the ramp and the bees will have access to all the liquid.

That is a very good point.

I use similar feeders for my wooden hives, but those feeders are much shallower than the poly feeder, and I've had some unpleasant surprises when filling up the feeder too much, when the hives weren't exactly level... it causes the syrup to overflow the lip and drip into the hive (and out the front of the hive). The poly feeder is too deep for that, though.

 

[Millet]

Very few bees drown in them, as long as the bees can't reach the large reservoir. Sometimes the feeder is accidentally sold without the plastic or wiring shield, and if you use it without the shield, many many bees will drown.

Thank you but you have now give me something else too look into,

 

[ugcheleuce]

I suppose his rationale is that the cluster migrates to the front of the hive and the stores behind so the source is always above the bees...

Heh-heh-heh, thanks for that answer -- some of what you say is the exact opposite of what the mentor said.

I don't think I'll get more replies to this thread, so I'll reveal the beek's thinking (let me know what you think of his arguments).

1. Winter clusters typically start lower and towards the front of the hive, and then move up and towards the rear of the hive as winter progresses. He says. I'm not 100% sure about this wisdom. Remember, though, we put the frames in cold way.

2. During feeding, there will be a lot of bee traffic around the entrance to the feeder, and bees typically don't store feed in a high-traffic zone (i.e. in an area where lots of bees are moving across it). This means that the place where the feeder entrance was, will have more empty or half-filled cells.

3. So if during a very bad winter, the bees reach the top rear of the hive, they'll encounter empty or half-empty cells there, which is not good for the cluster.

Three points... #2 seems like it could be true. What do you think?

Samuel

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Heh-heh-heh, thanks for that answer -- some of what you say is the exact opposite of what the mentor said.

I don't think I'll get more replies to this thread, so I'll reveal the beek's thinking (let me know what you think of his arguments).

1. Winter clusters typically start lower and towards the front of the hive, and then move up and towards the rear of the hive as winter progresses. He says. I'm not 100% sure about this wisdom. Remember, though, we put the frames in cold way.

2. During feeding, there will be a lot of bee traffic around the entrance to the feeder, and bees typically don't store feed in a high-traffic zone (i.e. in an area where lots of bees are moving across it). This means that the place where the feeder entrance was, will have more empty or half-filled cells.

3. So if during a very bad winter, the bees reach the top rear of the hive, they'll encounter empty or half-empty cells there, which is not good for the cluster.

Three points... #2 seems like it could be true. What do you think?

Samuel

more or less what I said in my reply - #1 yes, all my hives are cold way and the bees tend to start the winter at the front of the hive but when I've checked my hives at the end of feeding I've never found the bees haven't stored in their 'high traffic' area around the feeder entrance as long as they've had enough syrup to fill all the gaps as I said most of my feeders have their entrance hole in the middle of the crown board - all the comb in that area is full and capped at the beginning of the winter - as are the ones with entrances to the front and the rear

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thank you but you have now give me something else too look into,

Ashforth and miller feeders can be a tad pricey Have a look at the Maisies white jumbo feeders and the Thornes 'English' feeder they hold half a gallon and sit over the crownboard and the bees get in the feeding cone through one of the holes in the CB - the maisies cone is towards the front, the T's is in the centre. You can also get smaller two litre ones. Maisies also do a mahoosive one which holds about three gallons and has two feeder cones - this one juts sits on the hive like a super but it's heavy when full and being plastic is a bit 'wobbly', if you need to move it when there is quite a bit of syrup left - expect to get covered in syrup. Think of trying to carry a nearly full square plastic washing up bowl any distance.

 

[Millet]

Ashforth and miller feeders can be a tad pricey Have a look at the Maisies white jumbo feeders and the Thornes 'English' feeder they hold half a gallon and sit over the crownboard and the bees get in the feeding cone through one of the holes in the CB - the maisies cone is towards the front, the T's is in the centre. You can also get smaller two litre ones. Maisies also do a mahoosive one which holds about three gallons and has two feeder cones - this one juts sits on the hive like a super but it's heavy when full and being plastic is a bit 'wobbly', if you need to move it when there is quite a bit of syrup left - expect to get covered in syrup. Think of trying to carry a nearly full square plastic washing up bowl any distance.

 

[For want of a better word]

Ashforth and miller feeders can be a tad pricey Have a look at the Maisies white jumbo feeders and the Thornes 'English' feeder they hold half a gallon and sit over the crownboard and the bees get in the feeding cone through one of the holes in the CB - the maisies cone is towards the front, the T's is in the centre. You can also get smaller two litre ones. Maisies also do a mahoosive one which holds about three gallons and has two feeder cones - this one juts sits on the hive like a super but it's heavy when full and being plastic is a bit 'wobbly', if you need to move it when there is quite a bit of syrup left - expect to get covered in syrup. Think of trying to carry a nearly full square plastic washing up bowl any distance.

See what you mean... but shirley one fits the 15liter standard feeder and then fills it from the syrup bowser?? then move on to the next colony...

Yeghes da

 

[Cussword]

Ashforth and miller feeders can be a tad pricey Have a look at the Maisies white jumbo feeders and the Thornes 'English' feeder they hold half a gallon and sit over the crownboard and the bees get in the feeding cone through one of the holes in the CB - the maisies cone is towards the front, the T's is in the centre.

I have three of the gallon -ish feeders with the cone in the centre. They do use them but, there's very often a ring of dead bees at the bottom of the cone.

Am I doing something obviously wrong?
The hives are level.

 

[wessexmario]

I have three of the gallon -ish feeders with the cone in the centre. They do use them but, there's very often a ring of dead bees at the bottom of the cone.

Am I doing something obviously wrong?
The hives are level.

is your roof insulated?
I'm thinking that if the bees go up and down into the cone, and it's much colder up there then they might be getting too cold to make it back to the warmth of the cluster.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have three of the gallon -ish feeders with the cone in the centre. They do use them but, there's very often a ring of dead bees at the bottom of the cone.

Am I doing something obviously wrong?
The hives are level.

No - it happens ocasionally, on the whole I get few casualties although the occasional colony has a bit of lemming in their genes and there's nothing you can do to resolve it.
It's only a handful of bees and it doesn't seem to stop them taking stores down so I just live with it and yes, roofs are insulated but it shouldn't make much difference at that time of year

 

[Into the lions den]

Ditch them and use Miller feeders... or is it Millar feeders... either way seems to work with them... but it does depend on if frames are cold or warm way.... pity that old Grayling has been sent to the smoker... she would have been all over me like a rash for being such a pedant!

Yeghes da

LOL........I burned over 200 Miller feeders and moved to Ashforth only.

However...the answer to the OP....whichever direction is downhill. You want all the syrup to drain to the barrier.

Many ruses, variants, speeding up tactics that can be used....no place for them on this part of the forum.

 

[Cussword]

Thanks chaps