Bee space - 8mm of nothing

[drstitson]

At request of another member i'll summarise a little of the bob smith talk from saturday (wrt brood box at least).

1. make sure brood box is of correct dimensions with correct 8mm bee space at bottom (or top). On BBS the frames should be flush with top of box (and lug ends should be snug to outer walls - add packing fillets (eg coffee stirrers or lolly sticks) if necesssary. watch out for shrinkage during life of the box.

2. Use proper hoffman frames, not plastic ends or converters.

3. check the bottom part of the side bars is narrower by 4mm each side (some are 6mm!)

4. use wide top bars - which again give 8mm between frames

5. use wide (manley) type bottom bars to remove spare space at bottom of frame.

6. ensure frames are constructed square with properly fitted foundation

7. ensure frames are tight against each other in the hive and use a dummy board for ease of inspection.

8. make sure you have proper format QE ie flush on one side and 8mm on other, not the usual 50:50 compromise.

9. he has a set of wooden feeler gauges (two in fact - 1 large and 1 small) for checking bee space!!!!

 

[For want of a better word]

8. make sure you have proper format QE ie flush on one side and 8mm on other, not the usual 50:50 compromise.

Just measured my qe ekes... are all 9mm, I use bottom space Nationals with the eke on top of the brood then the qe... then the next box etc...
Should I shave one mm of them?

 

[drstitson]

no - 8 vs 9 mm isn't the issue i don't think - the problem comes when you accumulate/aggregate errors - so say your frames are sitting 1mm below top of box the resulting 10mm might well be a problem. likewise proud frames+plastic ends could impinge by 2+mm into beespace above.

and as i said it's the compromise QEs that are the real problem.

most of us use easily accessible 9mm stripwood for these sort of jobs.

 

[drex]

I find that on BBS Nationals with a QE straight on top of frames they glue it up terribly. Put an 8 mm rim under it and no problem. So what do I do Dr S?

 

[herefordshirehoney]

Cheers very useful for begineer

 

[drstitson]

drex - is that just a perforated zinc/plastic excluder or one of the wishywashy framed wire ones? if the former then you do need a frame if you don't want the QE stuck down.

 

[itma]

Thanks for that!

...
2. Use proper hoffman frames, not plastic ends or converters.
3. check the bottom part of the side bars is narrower by 4mm each side (some are 6mm!) ...
5. use wide (manley) type bottom bars to remove spare space at bottom of frame.

Hmmm.
My Th*rnes 14x12 Hoffmans are 12mm (11.8?) thinner at the bottom than the top (so indeed 6mm of 'waisting' on each side), giving a 12 mm (1.5 beespaces) gap between the lower parts of the sidebars on adjacent frames. Why didn't anyone kick up about this before?
Which means Th*rnes Manley bottom bars are wider than the bottom of the sidebar ... fail !
Just have to live with the ordinary style for now.
I wonder who makes "proper beespace" Hoffman sidebars?

9. he has a set of wooden feeler gauges (two in fact - 1 large and 1 small) for checking bee space!!!!

That is a very NICE idea ...

 

[drex]

drex - is that just a perforated zinc/plastic excluder or one of the wishywashy framed wire ones? if the former then you do need a frame if you don't want the QE stuck down.

Cheapo plastic. So not quite as clear cut as 8 mm one side and 0 the other.

 

[RoofTops]

Thanks for that!

Hmmm.
My Th*rnes 14x12 Hoffmans are 12mm (11.8?) thinner at the bottom than the top (so indeed 6mm of 'waisting' on each side), giving a 12 mm (1.5 beespaces) gap between the lower parts of the sidebars on adjacent frames. Why didn't anyone kick up about this before?
Which means Th*rnes Manley bottom bars are wider than the bottom of the sidebar ... fail !
Just have to live with the ordinary style for now.
I wonder who makes "proper beespace" Hoffman sidebars?


That is a very NICE idea ...

The bee space is generally accepted as being 6mm to 8mm so 12mm is 2 beespaces - which is what there should be between brood comb. The logic is there will be bees working both sides of facing comb so they need room to pass. In a super there are fewer bees so they only leave one beespace between comb faces.

I was taught Manley bottom bars* were best for brood frames and I am surprised they are wider than the bottom of a Hoffman side bar. Something is wrong if they are but they would still be better than the usual fairy sticks people use.

*I was taught by the late Brian Gant and when he mentioned "the advantages of Manley bottoms" there was much giggling amongst the female students of the class.

 

[jackbee]

Not linked to bee space but a useful part of his talk.

I thought his method of inspection using a dummy board to give space to slide the frames and remove for inspection without rolling bees, with the dummy ending up at alternate ends between inspections was very elegant and simple to behold and understand. It also meant there was never a frame with foundation left lying outside the brood box.

Simple is usually the best way!!

 

[itma]

The bee space is generally accepted as being 6mm to 8mm so 12mm is 2 beespaces - which is what there should be between brood comb. The logic is there will be bees working both sides of facing comb so they need room to pass. ...
I was taught Manley bottom bars* were best for brood frames and I am surprised they are wider than the bottom of a Hoffman side bar. Something is wrong if they are but they would still be better than the usual fairy sticks people use. ...

Rather than the amount of traffic, I understood that broodcombs want 2 beespaces so that there can be a layer of brood-heating bees on each face of the comb. /so I doubt there's heavy traffic needing more than one beespace round the side of the frames.
Of course in a crop super, there shouldn't be any brood, so it can go down to one beespace.

I'm perfectly happy with the single (8mm) beespace between 14x12 topbars, just surprised that they would design for 1.5 times that on the sidebars. I have T's 14x12 seconds from the online sale and some of their 1st grade Manley supers. The wide bottom bars really are wider than the bottom of the Hoffman sidebars.
From a production point of view, it would mean removing more material to do it the way that they have chosen. It would be easier to {EDIT - make the sidebars} the way Bob Smith suggests ...

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've just had a look in Thornes catalogue to examine the difference between Manley frame bottoms and ordinary ones. Alas the illustrations are not adequate. What are the one piece bottom bars? I've never seen those. Can those be used instead?

 

[itma]

... What are the one piece bottom bars? I've never seen those. Can those be used instead?

They are intended for frames with DIY wire foundation reinforcement (eyelets, etc) AFAIK.
Don't think they go with 'ordinary' wired foundation ...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ah, thank you

 

[For want of a better word]

Conversation I had with a very old beekeeper recently on bee space... he said that rotating the supers to the "cold way" above the brood box " put the queen off" from going up there to lay, if you were using bottom spaced hives and the brood box "the warm way".
He was also adamant that Hoffmans frame space was not near big enough and he only used 8 frame castellated spacers ( I presume in National boxes, but he may have been talking about WBCs as he referred to them as normal hives?)
This was in Wiltshire where he said they always kept bees differently.....
.. but I am willing to learn!

 

[drstitson]

can just confirm that the big T 2nds 14x12s are indeed narrower ones and so the wide bottom bars end up wider than the side bar.

 

[itma]

I've just had a look in Th**nes catalogue to examine the difference between Manley frame bottoms and ordinary ones. Alas the illustrations are not adequate. ...

[All directions refer to directions with the frame in the hive]


Std bottom bar is 8 mm tall and 6.5 mm wide.
Manley is the same 8 mm tall but 12 mm wide and reduced at the ends to 6.5 mm wide to fit the same size slots in the sidebars as the standard bottom bars.

BTW - note that right there is your 8mm "feeler gauge" ...

 

[tonybloke]

Not linked to bee space but a useful part of his talk.

I thought his method of inspection using a dummy board to give space to slide the frames and remove for inspection without rolling bees, with the dummy ending up at alternate ends between inspections was very elegant and simple to behold and understand. It also meant there was never a frame with foundation left lying outside the brood box.

Simple is usually the best way!!

it's how I run my hives

 

[Nic Rhodes]

4. use wide top bars - which again give 8mm between frames

does this mean 'DN' 5 top bars then rather than 'DN' 4 or am I missing something?

 

[itma]

does this mean 'DN' 5 top bars then rather than 'DN' 4 ...

Yes, just that. For your National Deep broods.