BBKA Epipen Policy

[BeeJayBee]

Couldn't agree more! I was trained in order to administer them to kids who were prescribed them. It's a medicine, and should be regarded as such. However if you have a person with anaphylactic symptoms and they have a pen with them.. lesser of the two evils to call 999 and give it anyway? It keeps the heart going and buys you time as I was told. It's not the cure in itself.

Could I ask a question please, even though I'm sure the answer has already been covered somewhere else.

Where we live mobile signals are unreliable, so calling 999 might not be possible.

If you are not trained, are the only person available, and are out of range of mobile signal, what would/should you do if you think your bee buddy is suffering from anaphylaxis? (Assuming you know they are allergic; know they carry an epipen; know where it is.)

My interpretation of the advice on the NHS website is that it should be administered. But the Epipen should only be used on the person it is prescribed for. ie don't use Billy's EpiPen on Berty.

That's all I need to know, and is probably what I would do if the need arose. I hope to goodness it never happens.

Exactly. We could do without the scare stories, as that is more likely to end up killing someone, by preventing someone from acting for fear of doing the person more harm, and/or being done for manslaughter!

I want to hear you maintain this after the first negligence claim against a person, doing exactly what you have said and resulting in loss of that person's house, money and bees to compensate the bereaved.

I'd guess that if somebody is suffering from anaphylaxis and nobody does anything then they are likely to die, and quite quickly. Using their epipen could make the difference.

Would you say that somebody could be sued for failing to use an epipen that they know is available, and watching the casualty die?

 

[victor meldrew]

We've had this discussion before .
Yes and had the same alarmist responses .
I would follow the advice given on the epipen website . which is to treat according to the instructions after checking a clearly put list of symptoms pointing to Anaphylaxis . There is even a video demonstration of the deployment of the pen
Too many people have unnecessarily lost their lives due to people being too frightened to act for fear of litigation !
The legal profession has turned this nation into a bunch of spineless jobs worthies.
VM

 

[BBG]

Too many people have unnecessarily lost their lives due to people being too frightened to act for fear of litigation !

Examples please?


The legal profession has turned this nation into a bunch of spineless jobs worthies.
VM

Rather, a more responsible, considered bunch of the population, which is the point of the Law surely.

Medicine, Law and other do not mix.

The road to ruin is paved with good intentions and littered with its corpses. IMHO of course.

 

[MandF]

I want to hear you maintain this after the first negligence claim against a person, doing exactly what you have said and resulting in loss of that person's house, money and bees to compensate the bereaved.

I imagine these high ideals will seem a little over-rated then. IMHO of course.

Scarey - or what!

Dear oh dear oh dear. here we go again.

How can any non professional be charged for "negligence"?!

We have been down this road before (with regards to the hives in the garden debate), show us one bit of case evidence where a "good samaritan" was charged with anything when attempting to save someones life but inadvertantly did the wrong thing.

Heres a more likely scenario - a member of the public pulling someone from a burning car, causing spinal damage & some degree of paralysis. How many people have been sued for that?

One case - its all we need...

 

[MandF]

Would you say that somebody could be sued for failing to use an epipen that they know is available, and watching the casualty die?

Yes they can, in France for example. You can be charged if you do not help an accident victim.

 

[MandF]

Rather, a more responsible, considered bunch of the population, which is the point of the Law surely.

Medicine, Law and other do not mix.

The road to ruin is paved with good intentions and littered with its corpses. IMHO of course.

You are wrong though. Surely it is more responsible to do everything possible to save someones life?

I only hope you are nowhere near if I or one of my loved ones have an accident and need help.

In fact, if you stood by and watched one of my loved ones die clutching an epipen I would sue you through the civil courts!

 

[BBG]

Dear oh dear oh dear. here we go again.

How can any non professional be charged for "negligence"?!

We have been down this road before (with regards to the hives in the garden debate), show us one bit of case evidence where a "good samaritan" was charged with anything when attempting to save someones life but inadvertantly did the wrong thing.

Heres a more likely scenario - a member of the public pulling someone from a burning car, causing spinal damage & some degree of paralysis. How many people have been sued for that?

One case - its all we need...

I want to hear you maintain this after the first negligence claim ........

 

[victor meldrew]

Rather, a more responsible, considered bunch of the population, which is the point of the Law surely.

Medicine, Law and other do not mix.

The road to ruin is paved with good intentions and littered with its corpses. IMHO of course.

We are a little dramatist aren't we
Littered with corpses indeed !
In the real world today people are dying whilst police/ ambulance crews/ rescue teams are carrying out risk assessments, instead of using their god given common sense and doing the job they are paid for or volunteer for IMHO .
VM

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In all my first aid courses - first aid on board, advanced medical first aid, basic first aid I've always been told. If there is no other option and you believe that doing nothing may cause the death of the casualty then do whatever it takes to try and save that life. There's no point in suing Joe Bloggs on the street as he hasn't enough money to make it worthwhile.
Thanks to American influence (or what the press want us to believe happens there) we in this country are afraid to break wind now 'in case we get sued'
IMHO this country and it's legal system still has a fair bit of common sense kicking around.
Remember that all the multi million dollar lawsuits we are told that happen in America are against multi million dollar companies not Mr Average.
Anyway - what were we talking about?

 

[BBG]

You are wrong though. Surely it is more responsible to do everything possible to save someones life?

I only hope you are nowhere near if I or one of my loved ones have an accident and need help.

In fact, if you stood by and watched one of my loved ones die clutching an epipen I would sue you through the civil courts!

Odd thing to say, especially if I had never seen an epipen?

Suing me through the Civil Courts would take an incredible amount of money, patience and strain on you and your family - like you would never believe and over many years.

So, someone comes along and sees a man dressed in a white suit, possibly.

Unless he had been to for a meal with relatives and was in the car park stretched out.

Alongside is a syringe type thingy.

Being gung-ho and intent on being a hero, our man picks up the syringe thingy and whacks the source of new found heroism with it.

Bang! In goes the over pure dose of heroin the man has collapsed from by trying to administer to himself just before YOU come upon your source of heroism - this guy lying on the car park. He would have survived if he'd been left to get over it or qualified medical help was called.

So, had you NOT been gung-ho, you would not have overloaded this man with heroin that was too pure. In fact, he would have survived if it weren't for you, gung-ho, hell-bent on "saving his life".

Imagine that wasn't you, it was me. Am I in the wrong for not realising your relative was a drug addict and had fooled the police for years by carrying his next 'shoot-up' disguised as an epipen?

Supposing you knew your relative was an addict. Are you responsible for not doing something about it? Are you now going to sue me for trying to save their life and killing them.

Imaginary situations are fine but get some realism into it - the likelihood of coming across such a situation is remote. The responsibility lies with the person with the epipen to inform ALL who are likely to encounter them in this unlikely situation and what to do in that extremely unlikely event.

I have had extreme reaction to bee stings. Do I want some gung-ho wannabeeahero jabbing me with an epipen - NO! It would probably do a lot more harm than good.

If that happens, I will sue, if I can't, my wife will.

BTW - we DO carry the insurance to do so and it won't be the solicitor down the end of the street who also does conveyancing and the odd Will for your granny and her friends. It'll be your worst nightmare that will bring a letter for you to worry about each and every weekend for years and will haunt you and your family for the rest of your lives.

Would a paramedic pick up an epipen and use it - NO, must surely be the answer.

Think on!

 

[BBG]

In all my first aid courses - first aid on board, advanced medical first aid, basic first aid I've always been told. If there is no other option and you believe that doing nothing may cause the death of the casualty then do whatever it takes to try and save that life.

Assuming you are qualified to make this decision or do something that makes sense, like 999.

There's no point in suing Joe Bloggs on the street as he hasn't enough money to make it worthwhile.

Thanks to American influence (or what the press want us to believe happens there) we in this country are afraid to break wind now 'in case we get sued'

IMHO this country and it's legal system still has a fair bit of common sense kicking around.

The Law develops constantly and has nothing to do with common sense or justice. It's the Law and that gives us a constant that controls how we behave

Remember that all the multi million dollar lawsuits we are told that happen in America are against multi million dollar companies not Mr Average.

Mr Average has earnings and usually assets so the legal beagles will make the assessment and being paid by insurance to act on their client's behalf will pitch in irrespective. The "Man of Straw" principle is outdated, to a point, with the advent of insurance cover

Anyway - what were we talking about?

A responsible attitude to a very unlikely situation!

IMHO of course

 

[BBG]

You are wrong though. Surely it is more responsible to do everything possible to save someones life?

I only hope you are nowhere near if I or one of my loved ones have an accident and need help.

In fact, if you stood by and watched one of my loved ones die clutching an epipen I would sue you through the civil courts!

I would like to say without any ego, that I have pulled a person from the sea and one from a swimming pool both were sinking and thrashing.

I have pulled a person from a car that was billowing smoke.

I beat out and tore out the battery cables on fire in a vehicle where a man was trapped, with my hands and suffered badly as a result.

We saved two people and their sunken craft a few summers ago.

I carried a woman who had O/D to hospital where they pumped her stomach and she lived.

There's more but it's boring.

Are you still sure you don't want me near you or your loved ones if they have an accident??












I still wouldn't use that epipen!

 

[Adam]

Would a paramedic pick up an epipen and use it - NO, must surely be the answer.
Think on!

What is your point BBG? As clearly the overall weight of opinion is against you. Everyone here, medically trained or otherwise has basically indicated that injecting someone, in circumstances in which you genuinely believe you are acting in their best interest does not warrant a case for suing them. Even if they tried to sue them their is no case to answer as the "acting in their best interests" is an acceptable defence. This is what the Red Cross and St. Johns ambulance teach on their first aider courses - for example can you be sued for breaking someones ribs whilst giving them CPR etc. It comes up again and again and the answer is no. Not even if their heart hadn't stopped. It's all down to acting in your own opinion as to what is in their bests interests. Of course, you can try and sue, and I'm sure a solicitor will happily take your money, but their is no case to answer.

What is your final hope - that everyone we meet who is a beekeeper, beginner or otherwise signs forms to say "Yes, give me an injection if needed"? Or that we all have to get insurance against this theoretical possibility? Or we ban the use of Epi-pens for beekeepers? Or that we let someone die, rather than do what we believe is needed?

I can't see where you are steering the argument - what is your fundamental point that you are trying to get across? That I could be sued, or that I might be sued, or that you believe their is a good chance of success if I was sued, following me pumping an epipen into someone else?

I have to say from a personal point of view (and I do have an epipen after a previous reaction) that if sticking it in someone, who I believed was anaphalactic, and in doing so increases their chances of survival I'd do it without a second thought. Sometimes you just have to make the right choice.

Just see "I slipped and fell into the life boat" for how covering your own backside to the detriment of others is not the moral way forward.

Adam

 

[victor meldrew]

What is your point BBG? As clearly the overall weight of opinion is against you. Everyone here, medically trained or otherwise has basically indicated that injecting someone, in circumstances in which you genuinely believe you are acting in their best interest does not warrant a case for suing them. Even if they tried to sue them their is no case to answer as the "acting in their best interests" is an acceptable defence. This is what the Red Cross and St. Johns ambulance teach on their first aider courses - for example can you be sued for breaking someones ribs whilst giving them CPR etc. It comes up again and again and the answer is no. Not even if their heart hadn't stopped. It's all down to acting in your own opinion as to what is in their bests interests. Of course, you can try and sue, and I'm sure a solicitor will happily take your money, but their is no case to answer.

What is your final hope - that everyone we meet who is a beekeeper, beginner or otherwise signs forms to say "Yes, give me an injection if needed"? Or that we all have to get insurance against this theoretical possibility? Or we ban the use of Epi-pens for beekeepers? Or that we let someone die, rather than do what we believe is needed?

I can't see where you are steering the argument - what is your fundamental point that you are trying to get across? That I could be sued, or that I might be sued, or that you believe their is a good chance of success if I was sued, following me pumping an epipen into someone else?

I have to say from a personal point of view (and I do have an epipen after a previous reaction) that if sticking it in someone, who I believed was anaphalactic, and in doing so increases their chances of survival I'd do it without a second thought. Sometimes you just have to make the right choice.

Just see "I slipped and fell into the life boat" for how covering your own backside to the detriment of others is not the moral way forward.

Adam

Adam, his use of phraseology like "Corpses littering the streets " points to his love of argument rather than having any serious conviction !
Agent Provocateur springs to mind
VM

 

[drstitson]

"If I collapse ( and I do have heart problems as well) after a sting near my hives, I would be grateful if anyone would stick me with an epipen. If you do not know what to do, read the instructions, they are very simple."

well said that man.

 

[BeeMoustashe]

Hain't nobody going to be sued if they act in a reasonable and logical manner for the honest held belief thay were doing good for the victim.

I ride a motorcycle. Do not remove a motorcyclist's helmet after a crash because of potential spinal damage. What if I'm not breathing? Can't do CPR with a helmet on. Let me die and safe my spine? Ridiculous. Could I sue you if you injure me? Yes. Would the courts listen? No. That's the difference. We hear alot about people being taken to court, but not about the outcome.

And the judges laughing their arses off that such a case has been brought before them.

Do what you gotta do to stop someone dying, bottom line. Get some nuts.

 

[BBG]

Suing is not the issue and neither is 'littered with corpses' - by that all sayings would be in the bin, it's just a light jocularity. Try to follow the discussion without resorting to silly comments and generalisations.

My point is, the epipen lying alongside an unconscious person might not be what it appears to be. It may be drugs as said. It may be empty.

There is an assumption that using the epipen is acceptable without even knowing if the cure is reasonable.

Ref you as a 1st Aider - you are liable if you are negligent.

You, a professional or Joe public has a duty of care.

If you give compression and damage that person's body and that person's heart had not stopped - you are liable for leaving that person in a worst position than when you encountered him/her. YOU can be sued - probably successfully.

"I have to say from a personal point of view (and I do have an epipen after a previous reaction) that if sticking it in someone, who I believed was anaphalactic, and in doing so increases their chances of survival I'd do it without a second thought. Sometimes you just have to make the right choice".

You must know that you need to establish this to a reasonably competent trained individual's satisfaction.


Has he been stung by a bee OR

Has this person had a heart attack .....

Has this person had an electric shock

Is this person having a diabetic episode

Has this person fainted.

Is he asleep

Is he in a drunken stupor

Is he suffering from narcolepsy and his epipen has fallen out of his pocket for the incidental wannabehero to distinguish himself.

A few weeks after my 'reaction' of:

Restriction of my airways, wheezing, hoarseness, hives, itching, swelling of lips, eyes etc, skin redness, palpitations, feeling very anxious, confused, stomach pain, faintness, that lasted an hour or so

I was found to have BP of 220 /110 due to LVHI et al - not sure if that would have escalated to a more dangerous level if an epipen wielder had administered the alleged life-saver, which was obviously called for but not necessary (perhaps) as I recovered and BMJ article says NSAIDs were likely cause in combination with bee stings.

Anyway, I'm saying it's up to the epipen carrier to inform those in contact that he may want to be injected if found flaked.

 

[BBG]

Can a first aider administer an Epipen to treat anaphylactic shock?

‘Epipens’ contain injectable adrenaline for the treatment of severe allergic
(anaphylactic) reactions, for example to peanuts. People would only carry an Epipen if
prescribed by a doctor.

"First aiders can only administer this medication in a life-saving situation, i.e.:

a) they are dealing with a life threatening emergency in a casualty

b) the casualty has been prescribed and is in possession of an Epipen

c) the first aider has been trained to use it."

numerous on government institutions and other such as

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...46hNIB&sig=AHIEtbTplSTjngYhlMkiS9Q8CLfmo9Ti0Q

That's it from me.

BOL but keep away from me!

 

[Nic Rhodes]

OK, so I know I am medically trained but I think this is a bit of a storm in a teacup.

We all, doctors included, in such situations have to do what we ourselves feel comfortable doing.

If I collapse ( and I do have heart problems as well) after a sting near my hives, I would be grateful if anyone would stick me with an epipen. If you do not know what to do, read the instructions, they are very simple.

Dr Ex

well said Dr Ex, I would hope anyone around here would try and do what they thought was the right thing to me. I would have no regrets about doing it for someone else, I would have regrets if I didn't do anything however.

 

[MandF]

I want to hear you maintain this after the first negligence claim ........

It will never ever happen.

If there was a situation where one used an epipen and killed someone (!), if someone intended to bring a civil litigation, all the stab death killer would need to do, even if they couldnt be bothered to explain they were acting perfectly reasonably, is point to the NHS advice. And every other bit of advice I have seen on this.

And again, lets be clear, noone is advocating going around stabbing anyone who sounds a bit wheezy, we are saying that if someone is suspected of going into anaphylactic shock, and after calling 999, and there is an epipen available, and you believe the patient is about to die, THEN use it.

But thats fine, you stand by and watch someone die. I personally wouldnt think about tort law, or myself, I would be thinking about saving someone elses life.

I just hope for your sake you dont find yourself in that position in France.