AS help needed

[Canary Honey]

A large colony has been in a swarmy mood for a while, very nice, relatively friendly bees that I am keen on but I have never managed to spot this queen in her year of reign, a great layer but didn't even spot her in the spring inspections.

This mornings inspection found a well fed queen larvae and many empty cups. Decided that this evening I must perform AS, only I have never found the queen ...

The following is what I have done out of desperation, I have a feeling that every detail has been a mistake.

The original position now has a deep box with several drawn old empty frames, a frame of honey and the frame with the now sealed queen cell.

The rest of the original hive has been moved ten feet and turned 90 degrees.

So obviously because this was done at 6pm there were few flying bees to go back to the original site.

Any (good) advice welcome, and I know I am an idiot.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is a good way
Move the original brood box and floor to one side. A minimum of one metre. This is called the ‘Parent Colony’; the younger bees remaining in this box.
2. Place a new brood box and floor filled with drawn comb or foundation on the original site. This is called the ‘Artificial Swarm’; the flying bees will fill this box.
3. Examine the brood combs in the original brood box (parent colony) and remove a comb containing eggs and young brood. It must not have any queen cells on it.
4. Place this comb in the centre of the new box (artificial swarm).
5. Replace the vacant space in the original box (parent colony) with a new drawn comb or
foundation.
6. Place any supers on the new brood box (artificial swarm) at the original site.
Leave for seven days then
7. Examine the new brood box (artificial swarm). If there are no queen cells then the queen is probably in this colony and eggs should be visible. If there are queen cells select one with a visible larva and destroy the rest.
8. If the queen is not present in the original box (parent colony) then emergency queen cells will be built. Knock down all queen cells bar one opened cell with a visible healthy larva. From this, a virgin queen will hatch and take over the colony. However, if the queen is present then due to the reduced number of bees they will break down any queen cells and eggs and young larvae will be seen.
9. Later in the season or in the following spring you will need to find the older queen to cull her. The colonies can then be re-united.

Curtesy of the NBU

 

[Poly Hive]

What is done is done.

You know about pairing combs to find queens of course. A very good technique.

PH

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36329&highlight=queen+finding

 

[Beefriendly]

What is done is done.

It will be fine.
Now I've tried pairing combs for elusive queens. In my case no success whatsoever.
One sure way, as long as you have time on your side.....is add an extra brood box with 2 frames paired together. Shake all your bees in the brood box into this box, which will include the elusive queen (but do check sides of original brood box). Stick a queen excluder on the top of this and your frames with brood above. Most of the bees will move upwards to the brood.
Next day you will find your queen between the two frames in the bottom box....almost 100%...but not quite. But, hell you only have 2 frames to look at she is there somewhere...

 

[Uncle Betty]

An alternative for future reference, from the Haynes book. It does not require the queen to be found. Haven't tried this myself. Yet.

----------------------------------------------------

1. Everything to one side, on upturned roof.

2. New box of frames on original site.

3. Pull out the centre frames from this new box, so that all bees can be shaken off combs into new box.

The queen will then either be among those shaken bees, or on the old floor , or on the wall of the old box.

4. Brush all bees off combs that didn't shake off.

5. Secure those combs in any kind of sealed box as you empty them, so they don't get repopulated. In order.

6. Check those combs for one with no qc's but with plenty eggs, larvae and sealed brood. Put into the new box.

7. Any bees left on walls of old box, brush into the new. Queen is probably now in the new box.

8. Rebuild so that on the original site is - floor, new box, excluder, supers, old box, crown board, roof.

9. After 24 hrs, nurse bees have gone up to look after brood.

10. Next day - top box in a new location on a new floor.

----------------------------------------------------------------

You now have Q and flying bees on the old site in a new box, with supers. As per an artificial swarm.

 

[Beefriendly]

An alternative for future reference, from the Haynes book. It does not require the queen to be found. Haven't tried this myself. Yet.

Betty dear, not a good idea to give untried advice. Much of it is ...shall we be polite and say not quite accurate.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Betty dear, not a good idea to give untried advice. Much of it is wrong.

Untried by myself is hardly the same thing as untried by Adrian Waring, surely ?


Poly gave well-tried advice, and still no good to you -

Now I've tried pairing combs for elusive queens. In my case no success whatsoever.

The best of advice can't account for operator error, of course.


It would be more constructive if you could highlight any errors in the logic of the procedure as I outlined it.


.

 

[Beefriendly]

For a start what are you trying to achieve?

 

[Beefriendly]

The following is what I have done out of desperation, I have a feeling that every detail has been a mistake.

Canary it will all be fine. Although worth checking hive with queen cell has plenty of bees. Just had a mistake where not enough bees to keep queen cells (and brood) warm in a small nuc.

 

[Uncle Betty]

For a start what are you trying to achieve?

From the OP...

I have never managed to spot this queen in her year of reign... even... in the spring inspections

From the NBU...

Later in the season or in the following spring you will need to find the older queen to cull her.

The thing is, if she couldn't be found the first time, there's no reason to be certain she will be found later. Therefore...

From Haynes Bee Manual, p.93...

There will be times when you simply can't find the queen... However all is not lost as it's possible to control swarming without finding the queen. This is a variation of the 'artificial swarm' and achieves the same arrangement of the colony.

 

[Beefriendly]

Betty...sweetheart.., there is an annual Summer school for beekeeping held in Gormanston Co. Meath each year (usually late July). It might be worth you going along to understand a bit more about swarm control.
Just a suggestion of course. Real beekeeping vs book reading stuff.!!!
Nigel

 

[Uncle Betty]

Betty, there is an annual Summer school for beekeeping held in Gormanston Co. Meath each year (usually late July). It might be worth you going along to understand a bit more about swarm control.
Just a suggestion of course.
Nigel

Gormanston is in August this year.

Verifying your 'advice', instead of returning to posts after twenty minutes to add smilies, would have been a better use of your time.


I asked you already about the logic of Claire & Adrian Waring's procedure ? Is it sound or not ? If not, why not ?

 

[Uncle Betty]

Betty...sweetheart.., there is an annual Summer school for beekeeping held in Gormanston Co. Meath each year (usually late July). It might be worth you going along to understand a bit more about swarm control.
Just a suggestion of course. Real beekeeping vs book reading stuff.
Nigel

Real beekeeping as in pairing combs ? Keep practising, you might get it some day.


Again with the editing of posts, to be insulting... ridiculous.

 

[Beefriendly]

Gormanston is in August this year.

So sue me...I said "usually late July"; off the top of my head... Near enough.

 

[Canary Honey]

Canary it will all be fine. Although worth checking hive with queen cell has plenty of bees. Just had a mistake where not enough bees to keep queen cells (and brood) warm in a small nuc.

I am hoping that they will be okay tonight and a few more will transfer over in the morning. The ones that were with the queen cell (with some capped brood) seemed unconvinced of the accommodation and were lingering on the doorstep.

Whats done is indeed done, and by next week I am sure the original will have started proceedings on a new queen or five and I can have another go. I will not be able to find the invisible queen who is somewhere within four full boxes.
Forgot to mention the issue of kit, most of my spares is 20 miles away and couldn't be fetched.

 

[Millet]

Real beekeeping as in pairing combs ? Keep practising, you might get it some day.


Again with the editing of posts, to be insulting... ridiculous.

Chill you are getting a bit below the belt, if you read through the forum you will see BF helps those who want to be helped, if you start trying to be sarcastic you will get the same response which helps nobody.
Chill out and try to soak the good info up.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Chill you are getting a bit below the belt, if you read through the forum you will see BF helps those who want to be helped, if you start trying to be sarcastic you will get the same response which helps nobody.
Chill out and try to soak the good info up.

Not that you're biased...

 

[Millet]

Not that you're biased...

No not at all whatever you mean but i fear you may struggle to get help from anyone unless you change your attitude.

 

[Beefriendly]

Millet, he/she is not worth wasting any more typing time on.

 

[badger65]

When you cant find the queen you could use the snelgrove method.