Another fine mess

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

beebot

House Bee
Joined
Jun 8, 2015
Messages
285
Reaction score
0
Location
Kent
Hive Type
None
Had a colony which queen stopped laying. No brood or queen cells. So did a test frame. Nothing except sealed brood. So thought queen must be there and thought I would combine with another colony as they were not the most gentle colony anyway. Went through box twice, put frames in pairs etc. Could not see her which is not too unusual (for me anyway). So moved hive about 10 meters away and put nuc in original hive position. After a few hour went back; as expected hive was less populated and easier to inspect and nuc was full of flyers.
Went through hive several times and tried sieving through Q excluder but could not fine her. Went back after several hour but still could not find her.

So what do I do now?
 
Had a colony which queen stopped laying. No brood or queen cells. So did a test frame. Nothing except sealed brood. So thought queen must be there and thought I would combine with another colony as they were not the most gentle colony anyway. Went through box twice, put frames in pairs etc. Could not see her which is not too unusual (for me anyway). So moved hive about 10 meters away and put nuc in original hive position. After a few hour went back; as expected hive was less populated and easier to inspect and nuc was full of flyers.
Went through hive several times and tried sieving through Q excluder but could not fine her. Went back after several hour but still could not find her.

So what do I do now?

When did you last see eggs or larvae ? It sounds very much as though they are queenles .. but sometimes it's a bit too early if the queen has only just 'gone' for them to start queen cells off on a test frame. Personally, I would put another test frame in but make sure that there are some fresh (I mean day old) eggs in it. It's a bit of a risk doing anything in the way of combining if you can't find the queen. The only other option is to shake them out and let them beg their way into your other hives ...

Or did you have a plan for this hive ? .. if they were testy you are probably better off without the queen to produce more unpleasant bees.
 
Firstly, a test framenever even proved there is a queen present.

Secondly, the queen, if present may have stopped laying for one of a few reasons. One is that she is nosemic.

Thirdly, finding a queen is not rocket science.

Maybe a 'sticky' is required for finding a queen - for those of us who have difficulty in spotting her.

Marking queens, at some appropriate point (not when queen loss might seriously compromise the colony survival), is the obvious beekeeper aid (and there are other advantages of marking).

Being confident that she is in the brood box is one oft overlooked, by inexperienced beeks, who have small scrubby queens, faulty Q/Es or have made mistakes in manipulations. So look for brood in any supers is the first thing to do if she is not found in the brood box!

Not smoking the bees heavily is often important fa tof in keeping her where you would expect her to be.

Simply searching by eye is the first obvious ploy for most of us.

Failing that, splitting the brood into two boxes and discerning which half is queenless (roaring, running around the frames, etc) compared with the calm half. Splitting again or further searching is perhaps then easier.

If two brood boxes, inserting a Q/E between the boxes and waiting a couple days before going back will make finding the queen only half as difficult, if she is a laying queen.

If she is is only in one box (or even two) brood frames can be spread into pairs and left for a while with light entering the box. The queen will almost always be found on an inner surface of one of the pairs where it is dark.

Sieving is a ploy which can be resorted to, as long as she is a large queen. Small queens can become trapped while attempting to get through the excluder. Not important if she is for tbe 'chop'.

The ultimate, IMO, is to separate all brood nest bees into a box with only a couple of frames with open brood. Covered with a Q/E and with the brood box, empty of bees placed over, left for a day (or less) will simply result in the brood bees returning to the brood above leaving the queen and some nurse bees in the bottom box. Moving the bottom box away and leaving it in the light will almost certainly result in the queen being found between those two frames (flying bees will have left, as an advantage, after about half an hour, provided the bees are flying that day!).

Other ploys might be to run bees back into a fresh box up a ramp covered in a white (preferably) cloth, while the beekeeper hunts for the queen as they crawl back towards the hive. Slow and steady, perhaps one frame at a time.

Knowing where to look and how to recognise her is a distinct advantage. Being slightly more raised on the frame, having nurse/feeder bees grouped around, etc, etc. Knowing whether your strain is 'steady' on the frames or a 'runner' helps and changing the strain to a 'steadier on the frame' type most certainly helps in finding and catching her!

Hope that lot helps. Not totally exhaustive but plenty of ideas for you to consider.
 
RAB ... your post above should be s sticky on it's own titled ' Finding the queen' .. one of the most informative and comprehensive posts I've seen on the subject. Picked up a couple of tips and methods I had not heard before. Excellent. I've copied the text into my beekeeping folder for future reference.

But ... A test frame should eventually determine if they are queenless. In my limited experience, if you give them some fresh eggs and they have become hopelessly queenless (ie: no eggs, no larvae and polished cells), they will, usually, start to build queen cells and that is a good indication that there is no queen present.

I have some sympathy with the OP as I have a queen that is so elusive .. small and very quick to hide in a corner .. but very productive. Actually finding her is a real nightmare so I only usually see her by chance; I just look for eggs and grubs and all is well. I dread the prospect of having to really try to find her.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the extensive replies and advice.

Will have another go at finding the queen.

Why do you say the test frame does not show a queen is present? I thought this was standard method. There was eggs and BIAS on frame so I would have thought they would try to draw something.
 
Thanks for the extensive replies and advice.

Will have another go at finding the queen.

Why do you say the test frame does not show a queen is present? I thought this was standard method. There was eggs and BIAS on frame so I would have thought they would try to draw something.

If they make QC's on a test frame that's a positive indication there is no queen there and they are trying to make a new queen - if they don't make QC's it is only an indication that there may be a queen present - it could also mean that there is no queen present but they just can't be bothered to make a QC
 
Had a colony which queen stopped laying. No brood or queen cells. So did a test frame. Nothing except sealed brood. So thought queen must be there and thought I would combine with another colony as they were not the most gentle colony anyway. Went through box twice, put frames in pairs etc. Could not see her which is not too unusual (for me anyway). So moved hive about 10 meters away and put nuc in original hive position. After a few hour went back; as expected hive was less populated and easier to inspect and nuc was full of flyers.
Went through hive several times and tried sieving through Q excluder but could not fine her. Went back after several hour but still could not find her.

So what do I do now?

Does the colony have supers on, is she in the supers?

Finding queens is always a case of divide and conquer. Narrowing it down by removing the flying bees as you did. Then removing frames of stores. There usually isn't many bees on capped brood.

How many frames do the bees occupy?
 
Why do you say the test frame does not show a queen is present? I thought-

Better to read up than guessing. They would virtually always build queen cells if there were no queen and no laying workers. The latter instance of laying workers (even if not actively laying) may make any assumption of a queen being present (when no queen cells are built) exactly 100% wrong.

is she in the supers?

Do keep up! Read post #3?
 
Why do you say the test frame does not show a queen is present? I thought-

Better to read up than guessing. They would virtually always build queen cells if there were no queen and no laying workers. The latter instance of laying workers (even if not actively laying) may make any assumption of a queen being present (when no queen cells are built) exactly 100% wrong.

is she in the supers?

Do keep up! Read post #3?

Go back to post 1, there is no indication whether there are any supers on the colony. I don't have a problem finding the queen no matter how small, how about yourself?
 
No supers on but it is a double brood with 15/16 frames of bees.
Last saw eggs 2 weeks ago which would be about 16 days ago.
No brood left.

The problem with books and reading is that not everything is covered. Ted Hooper (pg 182 5th edition) says if no queen cells then there is a queen of some sort. No mention of non-laying 'laying workers' Oliver so did not cross my mind. Will be getting a few more books for further reference.

I think I will try again to find her using all the advice and if still unsuccessful will be so p^^t off will probably do a shake out as Paryle mentioned.
 
No supers on but it is a double brood with 15/16 frames of bees.
Last saw eggs 2 weeks ago which would be about 16 days ago.
No brood left.

The problem with books and reading is that not everything is covered. Ted Hooper (pg 182 5th edition) says if no queen cells then there is a queen of some sort. No mention of non-laying 'laying workers' Oliver so did not cross my mind. Will be getting a few more books for further reference.

I think I will try again to find her using all the advice and if still unsuccessful will be so p^^t off will probably do a shake out as Paryle mentioned.

I'm guessing your using standard nationals with 11 frames per box, therefore if you have 15/16 frames of bees, what is on the other 6/7 frames?
 
Hi beebot,
I am sorry if it has already been mentioned above, but it is unusual for a colony not to requeen themselves. Usually in these situations there is an unmarked virgin in there which can be very difficult to find in a large colony, especially if she has the same colouring as the bees. It is sometimes also difficult to ascertain if they have swarmed because of all the emerging brood. I give them another week - you both need a rest. As Clive de Bruyn states in 'Practical Beekeeping' page 152 no eggs, no larvae, no sealed brood - Queenless or virgin present.
 
I'm guessing your using standard nationals with 11 frames per box, therefore if you have 15/16 frames of bees, what is on the other 6/7 frames?

Yes on Nationals. Nothing really but bees are reasonably evenly spaced as there is no brood. 15/16 is a guesstimate but there is a lot of bees.

Thx but why do you ask?
 
Last edited:
Hi beebot,
I am sorry if it has already been mentioned above, but it is unusual for a colony not to requeen themselves. Usually in these situations there is an unmarked virgin in there which can be very difficult to find in a large colony, especially if she has the same colouring as the bees. It is sometimes also difficult to ascertain if they have swarmed because of all the emerging brood. I give them another week - you both need a rest. As Clive de Bruyn states in 'Practical Beekeeping' page 152 no eggs, no larvae, no sealed brood - Queenless or virgin present.

I will put that one on my birthday list. Thx.
 
Yes on Nationals. Nothing really but bees are reasonably evenly spaced as there is no brood. 15/16 is a guesstimate but there is a lot of bees.

Thx but why do you ask?

Sorry I forgot to come back to this thread. I was trying to get at the fact the queen won't be on those 6/7 frames so that helps you to start narrowing it down. Can you get a frame of eggs to put in as a test frame? With a colony this big it's gonna take ages for a new queen to come into lay.
 
Drone laying Queen

Sort of related - I seem to have a drone laying queen - if I buy a new queen will the bees rid the hive of the drone layer or do I have to find the queen and remove her myself first.
Ann
 
Sort of related - I seem to have a drone laying queen - if I buy a new queen will the bees rid the hive of the drone layer or do I have to find the queen and remove her myself first.
Ann

Sorry Ann I you have to find and remove her
Sooner rather than later is best because the combs get very messed up
 
Thanks for the advise JMB although I did think it was an odd way of expressing thing it clear what you meant and really should not cause this fallout.

Still could not find a queen using all the trick people suggested. Have tried another frame and see what happens.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
..it could also mean that there is no queen present but they just can't be bothered to make a QC

Please please please don't involve me in this debate, but having been around and read about all kinds of situations, I have no problem at all in believing that sometimes bees just can't be bothered. No problem at all. The little swines ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top