and your starter for 10 is..........

[midnight sun]

During a recent discussion (about 10 mins. ago actually), we were discussing Queen cells. We are told that you should never shake a frame with a Queen cell on it in the normal way (top bar upper most) as you could dislodge the Queen. (or larva).
My questions are...
1) If you shook a sealed Queen cell (I would imagine she could be damaged at the early stages of metamorphosis), would the bees know (by chemical signal or lack of it for instance) and then react, (say tearing down the cell) or would they carry on in ignorance?

2) Would they eventually realise when the 'corpse' decayed and then tear it
down?

3) If there was only one cell because of swarm control had been administered and 5 days later any new Queen cells had been removed by the keeper. Would the bees find out too late and be doomed to laying workers? (As they would not have viable eggs etc. to raise an emergency cell)

I am assuming that the cell in question would have been a newly sealed cell that had been shaken due to being spotted too late ,but still placed in these circumstances in any case.
I would appreciate your comments. I know I haven't put this together too well but I'm sure the experienced members will know what I am asking. If not then berate me soundly (ooh err!) and I'll have another go...this time in English!

 

[oliver90owner]

3) If there was only one cell because of swarm control had been administered-

Of course, unless the beekeeper had two or more hives or could access a frame of eggs or very young larvae, or the beek requeened from elsewhere....

As an aside, I noted the advice on the beginners' section, just yesterday, was to remove all but one queen cell - and that was already sealed. Another recipe for disaster for the unknowing on that section! Sorry, but more carp advice for the poor new starters. But, nevermind, some don't really care about the bees.

 

[beecology]

edit

 

[Erichalfbee]

3)

As an aside, I noted the advice on the beginners' section, just yesterday, was to remove all but one queen cell

Why is that bad advice?

 

[midnight sun]

3) If there was only one cell because of swarm control had been administered-

Of course, unless the beekeeper had two or more hives or could access a frame of eggs or very young larvae, or the beek requeened from elsewhere....

Sorry RAB I reread my post and saw it wasn't clear in meaning. I understand your post about supply of Queen raw materials from another hive though (and agree with your comment about leaving a SEALED cell as you don't know if it is viable for a start). Too late if it's a dud.
What I meant was, can the bees sense or 'sniff out' if a Queen has been damaged or even killed in a sealed Queen cell after shaking. Or would they only be aware, too late to do anything about it, when she failed to emerge after roughly 8 days. Can they 'sense' that the larva is damaged beyond hope and will fail to metamorphose early enough to change plans and build new Queen cells to replace this one damaged by the keeper.
Our conversation that started this question seemed simple at the time!
Hope you can shed some light on this. Regards Dave

 

[midnight sun]

Why is that bad advice?

Because the cell was sealed and you don't know the viability after moving it or it's frame. Larva could be damaged so they say it's best to use an open Queen cell just in case. I think you know this but haven't noticed the detail in RAB's
reply.

(from RAB's post) ...was to remove all but one queen cell - and that was already sealed.

 

[burren]

Erichalfbee, it is not sound advice, because the queen cell was already sealed.....
It is unknown whether the q is viable, could be dead or empty. Better not to leave only one sealed, one open is best.

 

[burren]

midnight sun, you just pipped me.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, I know that. You leave one open cell, I've never left two, and go back before that one has a chance to emerge to remove all emergency QCs.
I advised somebody in beginners' section to leave just the one cell. He came back to say he did...it was sealed (that wasn't mentioned in his first post...)
My question was pre-emptive defence.

I suppose it's best to suggest to beginners that they leave two open cells and move the box to the other side of the parent hive a week after the AS.
I see that Dave Cushman's page says not to bother thinning out the QCs at all, just move the colony twice.

 

[midnight sun]

Yes, I know that. You leave one open cell, I've never left two, and go back before that one has a chance to emerge to remove all emergency QCs.
I advised somebody in beginners' section to leave just the one cell. He came back to say he did...it was sealed (that wasn't mentioned in his first post...)
My question was pre-emptive defence.

I suppose it's best to suggest to beginners that they leave two open cells and move the box to the other side of the parent hive a week after the AS.
I see that Dave Cushman's page says not to bother thinning out the QCs at all, just move the colony twice.

Wouldn't be my choice, like things simple and fairly safe. Reading your first sentence then, has me puzzled as to why you asked RAB Why is that bad advice? . I was pointing out that you seemed to miss the part where the cell was sealed, so the advice was bad, bearing in mind the usual advice on this forum. (as you have stated in your first sentence you don't do it). I think we both have become confused in this thread.

 

[midnight sun]

midnight sun, you just pipped me.

About time I was faster at typing than someone!

 

[Erichalfbee]

It was a pre-emptive strike....in case RAB meant me.
Don't be confused......just ignore me

 

[beeno]

Hi midnight sun,
I thought I might have damaged a QC on one occasion (not by shaking) and left two just in case and they duly swarmed.
I do believe the bees would know if the QC is dead and would lose interest in it and remove it in due course. Presently, carrying out a little 'experiment' to see if a QC the bees weren't interested in at the time is dead. However, it could be that the other QC was more mature and soon to emerge. I did see a lot of drone activity around the mating nuc today, but maybe they are just after some syrup! Well, it keeps me amused anyway.

 

[midnight sun]

Hi midnight sun,
I thought I might have damaged a QC on one occasion (not by shaking) and left two just in case and they duly swarmed.
I do believe the bees would know if the QC is dead and would lose interest in it and remove it in due course. Presently, carrying out a little 'experiment' to see if a QC the bees weren't interested in at the time is dead. However, it could be that the other QC was more mature and soon to emerge. I did see a lot of drone activity around the mating nuc today, but maybe they are just after some syrup! Well, it keeps me amused anyway.

Thanks Beeno. That's interesting. Still, I am still wondering how the bees know when to tear a cell down and why, if you follow. What makes them decide "this cell is no good, get rid of it". Do you follow? Is it pheromones, physical touch, time sealed with no emergence. What exactly triggers them to act I wonder?

 

[midnight sun]

It was a pre-emptive strike....in case RAB meant me.
Don't be confused......just ignore me

Oh...OK......I think..

P.S. Pre-emptive strike? So you don't take prisoners then. LOL

 

[midnight sun]

May have found the answer here:
http://honeybee.drawwing.org/book/queen-cell-destruction
Not read it all as I have just found it, but I think we can assume that pheromones are involved or the lack of and the workers know at what stage the Queen development is at or even if she is alive by chemicals that must leak through the porous cell wall which they can pick up.
Opinions gratefully received.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The pupa must move....I'm sure the bees can sense this. How do they know when to start thinning the end of the QC? Increase in pupal movement?

 

[alldigging]

The pupa must move....I'm sure the bees can sense this. How do they know when to start thinning the end of the QC? Increase in pupal movement?

There's lots going on
http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/magazine/150415-ngm-bees-more

 

[Erichalfbee]

There's lots going on
http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/magazine/150415-ngm-bees-more

Yes, somebody else posted this on another thread, excellent!
I wonder how they get the pupae to metamorphose uncapped in the glare of the camera lights?

 

[midnight sun]

I'm aware that the chemical signals change during development from egg to adult. Perhaps it's a combination of both? Perhaps when the Queen is ready to emerge she does move a lot and they pick this up as well, like you suggest. Thanks