an experiment

[user 6228]

As part of looking at bees and heat, I wanted to see how bee work in an tall insulated space. The bees would need to returned and source from a conventional hive since swarming time was occupied with ... Dealing with swarms. The solution was to make 2 or 3 boxes that would take 6 nAtional frames turned 90 degrees with bee permeable ends. This would give a 40 litre hive about 800 mm tall. 16 Temperature sensors and the wiring was embedded in the walls of each box. Challenges were making the frame supports strong and firmly attached to the wall. This was done by putting nylon inserts in the walls like they do in chipboard furniture.

This shows the supports and the temperature sensor pcb.

to see how warm it was the hive was tested with a heater in the top and then again in the bottom.

from the begining this hive was not going to be the easiest to manage. We selected the smallest colony we had
which that was on 6 frames of brood . These were put in the top box they had a few stores in these, the remaining frames were placed in the bottom box. The last bees walked in

They are in now and seem from the outside thriving

Next job is to do the wiring down the garden and put the multiplexer in water proof box.

 

[oliver90owner]

2 boxes each of 6 National deeps would be approx 40l. 3 would be approx a lot larger.

2 boxes of National frames on end would not be anywhere near 8oomm if bee space were applied between them.

Seems a bit of a silly way to do it. 3 boxes of short (in width) frames made with jumbo side bars looks to me to be the simple way to go.

I wonder how the bees would like their cells turned by 90 degrees.

I might be wrong as to what is supposed to be going on. Seems rushed and not thought out to me. That or poorly described?

 

[user 6228]

2 boxes each of 6 National deeps would be approx 40l. 3 would be approx a lot larger.

2 boxes of National frames on end would not be anywhere near 8oomm if bee space were applied between them.

Seems a bit of a silly way to do it. 3 boxes of short (in width) frames made with jumbo side bars looks to me to be the simple way to go.

I wonder how the bees would like their cells turned by 90 degrees.

I might be wrong as to what is supposed to be going on. Seems rushed and not thought out to me. That or poorly described?

1) 2 is 40l 3 is 60l The third is to allow for expansion, the third one is only in construction (see pictures)
2)you have to add the height of the lugs, (870mm)
3)Had considered non standard frames but that would require postponement for another year.

 

[Tom Bick]

Have I got this right you have taken a hive and turned it 90* as an experiment?

You will probably find that if placed in a situation with little choice of change bees will make the best of what they have be that whatever shape hive it is or an old vax hoover sticking out of a pile of rubble.

 

[Cie]

*cough* Warré

 

[user 6228]

Have I got this right you have taken a hive and turned it 90* as an experiment?

You will probably find that if placed in a situation with little choice of change bees will make the best of what they have be that whatever shape hive it is or an old vax hoover sticking out of a pile of rubble.

That the bees would make a go of it wasnt in question... its more what they do in maintaining their temperature in that environment.

 

[user 6228]

*cough* Warré

Although this may resemble a warre it's even narrower I.e ~200 mm width rather than ~300mm, and the insulation level is very very different.

 

[Tom Bick]

That the bees would make a go of it wasnt in question... its more what they do in maintaining their temperature in that environment.

It’s a thought gone too far to me you are perhaps losing contact with what draws us to this craft the bees.

I am all for people doing their thing and not following the crowd but this is ill thought out and one you could do next year.

 

[user 6228]

It’s a thought gone too far to me you are perhaps losing contact with what draws us to this craft the bees.

I am all for people doing their thing and not following the crowd but this is ill thought out and one you could do next year.

What's too far and what Is ill thought?
The box has been measured as just bit warmer than the average tree nest so how is that too far? This much much closer to the bees natural environment than a std national.
Too tall and narrow? On the contrary bees in trees get their 40 l a lot taller I.e. 1.5m

It you want to think of it in conventional terms
Think of it as an insulated national nuc with another nadird
Turning bees through 90 degrees? You do it at every inspection.

 

[Tom Bick]

What's too far and what Is ill thought?
The box has been measured as just bit warmer than the average tree nest so how is that too far? This much much closer to the bees natural environment than a std national.
Too tall and narrow? On the contrary bees in trees get their 40 l a lot taller I.e. 1.5m

It you want to think of it in conventional terms
Think of it as an insulated national nuc with another nadird
Turning bees through 90 degrees? You do it at every inspection.

You have taken an established colony of bees at a time they should be preparing for winter and turned them 90*

In my world trees come in all shapes and sizes.

 

[user 6228]

You have taken an established colony of bees at a time they should be preparing for winter and turned them 90*

In my world trees come in all shapes and sizes.

Here we have heather then the ivy all within 200m. The levels of insulation these bees are kept in means they are not running to the bee keepers timetable, but their own instead. However I set last weekend as the deadline to get them in and i have been working upto 2am to make sure I hit it.

 

[Tom Bick]

Here we have heather then the ivy all within 200m. The levels of insulation these bees are kept in means they are not running to the bee keepers timetable, but their own instead. However I set last weekend as the deadline to get them in and i have been working upto 2am to make sure I hit it.

Sounds like they are running to the beekeepers timetable

 

[drstitson]

Oh FFS - derek M is doing some impressive amateur science (the sort of thing that is championed by the R4 amateur scientist scheme) - in both this and his previous projects.

**derek - by amateur i'm not implying substandard or unprofessional**

bees are fine with comb in any orientation - the rotating hive proves that.

derek is trying to provide EVIDENCE to support various configurations and comparing our artificial set-ups with nature, NOT advocating we all switch to teetering towers of cobbled together builder's scraps.

BTW thought the initial pics showed a home made bathroom storage unit and "davros" wheelchair at first glance.

This thread demonstrates exactly the issue Finman has with Brits - we have in our midst a thermal Nanetti, doing proper experiments and measurements to provide evidence for the various practical approaches that we might all use (or already be using). And here he is getting poo-pooed on the grounds that his hive is artificial (yes), that it is late in the season to be tinkering (yes - but he wanted to get this ready for THIS winter, rather than wait another 15 months) and with fault being picked over his use of a "for simplicity/speed sake i'll use standard format gear inside" approach.

a model hive like this may well need the sake sort of interventions as his others - using standard frames allows this. otherwise he'd need to produce a backup horizontal hive(s) with alternative standard frames so that next season he could have spare brood etc.

Bravo derek - i hope this leads to a decent article (or two) in Beecraft or perhaps better in one of the professional beekeeping journals.

 

[Black Comb]

An easier alternative would be to stack MB langstroth nucs on top of each other.
They hold 6 frames, but you could run 4 or 5 with dummies, alt. reduce them down to national size with ply.

 

[mbc]

An easier alternative would be to stack MB langstroth nucs on top of each other.
They hold 6 frames, but you could run 4 or 5 with dummies, alt. reduce them down to national size with ply.

Lol. sssh !

 

[enrico]

I think you will be in trouble, the cells on the foundation will be the wrong way round, ie points of the hexagonal will not be up and down, the bees will be trying to screw the foundation round to get the hexagonal shapes the correct way. Interesting to see what has happened!
E

 

[mbc]

Oh FFS - - we have in our midst a thermal Nanetti, doing proper experiments

Whilst I applaud Derekm's inventiveness and endeavor, I'd be gobsmacked if your tongue wasnt firmly in cheek with this comparison.

 

[Tom Bick]

Oh FFS - derek M is doing some impressive amateur science (the sort of thing that is championed by the R4 amateur scientist scheme) - in both this and his previous projects.

**derek - by amateur i'm not implying substandard or unprofessional**

bees are fine with comb in any orientation - the rotating hive proves that.

derek is trying to provide EVIDENCE to support various configurations and comparing our artificial set-ups with nature, NOT advocating we all switch to teetering towers of cobbled together builder's scraps.

BTW thought the initial pics showed a home made bathroom storage unit and "davros" wheelchair at first glance.

This thread demonstrates exactly the issue Finman has with Brits - we have in our midst a thermal Nanetti, doing proper experiments and measurements to provide evidence for the various practical approaches that we might all use (or already be using). And here he is getting poo-pooed on the grounds that his hive is artificial (yes), that it is late in the season to be tinkering (yes - but he wanted to get this ready for THIS winter, rather than wait another 15 months) and with fault being picked over his use of a "for simplicity/speed sake i'll use standard format gear inside" approach.

a model hive like this may well need the sake sort of interventions as his others - using standard frames allows this. otherwise he'd need to produce a backup horizontal hive(s) with alternative standard frames so that next season he could have spare brood etc.

Bravo derek - i hope this leads to a decent article (or two) in Beecraft or perhaps better in one of the professional beekeeping journals.

Excellent that makes it all clear I will look forward to the published results.

 

[drstitson]

enrico:

http://www.apiservices.com/anivet/

mbc:

no - perfectly serious. just because derek doesn't have a university chair in apicoltura (and isn't part of an international academic working party on thermal characteristics of hives) doesn't diminish the value of his work IMHO.

 

[user 6228]

I think you will be in trouble, the cells on the foundation will be the wrong way round, ie points of the hexagonal will not be up and down, the bees will be trying to screw the foundation round to get the hexagonal shapes the correct way. Interesting to see what has happened!
E

Interesting... hadnt thought of that problem. I would have thought that woould have shown with putting fragments of comb in frames using the elastic band trick. Havent seen that happen but then I wasnt looking for it then.


Thinking some more about this: From the 6 fold symmetry its results not in the full 90 degrees difference but only 30 degrees

We shall see what happens...

rotating brood frame... thats a really strange idea... must confuse the hell out of both the varroa and the bees. Its not only oreintation it is also changing the heat loss/temperature.