Amm

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I find it so strange the mixed descriptions there are about amm. Small colony good tempered then massive colony bad tempered so what is it? Old photos show people looking after amm with no protection so how can they be bad tempered? Maybe when it becomes a 2nd - 3rd generation mix but is that not true for all strains?

ROB Manley in his book Bee Keeping in Britain:
'British Natives
This is, or was (for it is doubtful if the pure strain is still in existence)a variety of the black or brown bee of Europe, that has been located in our islands for a very long time...........in our time the bees of of the British isles are almost entirely cross breds or mongrels.Many of them resemble the true native bees in colour.
The british native blacks , as they were often called, were posessed of some very useful traits. They were good bees for wintering, built combs well and capped their honey very white........they were hardy and and wintered on very little stores, and would get paying crops of honey in seasons poor enough to quite prevent Italian strains from doing much good...........this variety swqrmed quite a lot..... but not to an excessive extent, i think. It had one serious fault, in that colonies were very liable to get into a panic when handled. It was not so much excitable as nervous, and smoke would often cause the whole population to pour out of the hive.......not always, of course, but very often. This nervousness did not take the form of viciousness, however, for British Natives were usually not particularly inclined to sting much.........'

(and as an aside) 'Importation of bees is a good thing when it is done wisely by those whose interest it is to improve our honey-getting strains; but indiscriminate imports are nothing but an evil

(My bolds )

 

[For want of a better word]

.
There are 600 dog "races" in the world. It woud be stylish if Britain can keep only one dog race which has been on isles since last ice ace.

What could it be? Lassie?

.

No way all the lassiedogs were wiped out 10000 years before present!
(1st January 1950)

But a new mongrel "Pit Bull" type of dog called " Biffa", "Bully" or " sick em fido" was developed for those who need protection from others ( usually living on large estates in social housing)
Parliament have passed laws forbidding the keeping of such dogs under the Dangerous dog Act.... apparently a mad monk imported dogs from all over Europe, during the latter half of the last century to develop the breed!
And also declared all other Lassie type dog had been wiped out by distemper ( also known as "white wall paint disease")

See... I can do humour too !!!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No way all the lassiedogs were wiped out 10000 years before present!
(1st January 1950)

But a new mongrel "Pit Bull" type of dog called " Biffa", "Bully" or " sick em fido" was developed for those who need protection from others ( usually living on large estates in social housing)
Parliament have passed laws forbidding the keeping of such dogs under the Dangerous dog Act.... apparently a mad monk imported dogs from all over Europe, during the latter half of the last century to develop the breed!
And also declared all other Lassie type dog had been wiped out by distemper ( also known as "white wall paint disease")

See... I can do humour too !!!!

 

[pargyle]

No way all the lassiedogs were wiped out 10000 years before present!
(1st January 1950)

But a new mongrel "Pit Bull" type of dog called " Biffa", "Bully" or " sick em fido" was developed for those who need protection from others ( usually living on large estates in social housing)
Parliament have passed laws forbidding the keeping of such dogs under the Dangerous dog Act.... apparently a mad monk imported dogs from all over Europe, during the latter half of the last century to develop the breed!
And also declared all other Lassie type dog had been wiped out by distemper ( also known as "white wall paint disease")

See... I can do humour too !!!!

Personally I prefer the more recent mongrels - allegedly to become breeds in their own right ... The Labradoodle and the Cockerpoo ... Perhaps our native bees ought to be accepted as Mongrels and named as such ... the Blackbuckiolan or the Carnibuckfistica

 

[Norton]

Indeed....and you aren't first passed the post on the topic either. Submission date Nov 2013.

Better get it peer reviewed in light of your word use.

 

[mbc]

.
There are 600 dog "races" in the world. It woud be stylish if Britain can keep only one dog race which has been on isles since last ice ace.

What could it be? Lassie?

.

Its fairly easy to stop dogs flying dozens of miles and humping your thoroughbred bitches when you're not looking.

 

[Stiffy]

I watched a programme about the wildlife of the Hebrides that featured Amm, all the claims that it was wiped out are rubbish, the beek who keeps them is trying to prevent foreign bees being brought to the island in order to protect them.

This is fine but what is he trying to 'protect' them from? Unless he does import bees at some point the strain will become inbred and eventually disappear.
Also, playing devils advocate why does one person have the right or indeed monopoly to prevent someone else keeping a strain of bee that doesn't necessarily fit in with this persons ideas.
S

 

[mbc]

I watched a programme about the wildlife of the Hebrides that featured Amm, all the claims that it was wiped out are rubbish, the beek who keeps them is trying to prevent foreign bees being brought to the island in order to protect them.

Lets not let boring facts get in the way of a good IoW wipe out tale.

Other governments in Europe would jump at the chance to help an initiative like Andrew Abrahams is accomplishing in preserving a native subspecies, however the rural sector, and in particular bees and beekeeping, are seen as such an unimportant joke by those in government in this country that they wouldnt dream of ruffling a few feathers by legislating for restrictions on imports for areas of Britain, despite the precedent being set in countries like Germany and Slovenia where only certain types of bee are allowed in some areas.

AMM is alive and well in many areas of the British Isles, certainly as pure as any other subspecies, but as ever, any pockets of residual native amm come under pressure from imported bees and other home grown bees of other races.
It amazes me the level of ignorance and misinformation spouted (some in this thread !) which does the cause considerable harm. Education is the key as it would take a certain type of bent individual to deliberately take in foreign genetics into an area where amm predominates and efforts are being made to keep them relatively pure.

A particular way of thinking which confounds me is the thought that amm from anywhere will be native (??!!), I'm astounded to hear of breeders bringing in queens from Scotland, Ireland, Norway and even Greece ( which would not historically have had amm) and calling their daughters Welsh black bees ?!
To my way of thinking each area would originally have had its own locally adapted population, merging and blending with others in the vicinity, and it would only take a concerted effort to improve the bees of each area with some thoughtful breeding and our whole population of bees would greatly improve. Fat chance unfortunately, given the short termism rife through society.
I rtecently discovered a big batch of Sardinian bees have arrived in my area, a bit depressing really.

 

[Swarm]

why does one person have the right or indeed monopoly to prevent someone else keeping a strain of bee that doesn't necessarily fit in with this persons ideas.
S

Indeed, why bother trying to preserve anything.

 

[mbc]

ROB Manley in his book Bee Keeping in Britain:
)

IIRC the same ROB Manley who imported, bred and sold Italian queens. No bias there then.

 

[Swarm]

No bias there then.

Had they gone queenless?

 

[mbc]

Had they gone queenless?

Lol.
Funnily enough my good examples of amm often had periods of no 'bias' during last seasons non summer, responding to external stimuli and shutting down egg laying when the conditions dictated.

 

[Finman]

why does one person have the right or indeed monopoly to prevent someone else keeping a strain of bee that doesn't necessarily fit in with this persons ideas.
S

that is the main point. There is a accepted legistation, what you can do in Britain, and orders what you must do if you import bees or queen from other countries. And seemenly that legistation has been long time.

Now some guy says that that wrong and my idea is right because the ice age says so.

What we ought to think about that: "salt of life" or "multi talent idiot"?

.For example we have so called Finnish cow races derived from about 100 years back.
The size of cow is 300 kg and modern cows are nearly 1000 kg. The milk production of the lovely cow is really poor. Every one says "they must be saved" but no one want to keep them because they are out of date. There is a diffence between lovely and productive.
Some keeps mini pigs in their living room, because they are "lovely".

 

[Swarm]

Rather than doing something positive to preserve an indigenous species, you would simply allow it to be over run?

A classic example of why the world would be a better place without us.

 

[mbc]

that is the main point. There is a accepted legistation, what you can do in Britain, and orders what you must do if you import bees or queen from other countries. And seemenly that legistation has been long time.

Now some guy says that that wrong and my idea is right because the ice age says so.

What we ought to think about that: "salt of life" or "multi talent idiot"?

.For example we have so called Finnish cow races derived from about 100 years back.
The size of cow is 300 kg and modern cows are nearly 1000 kg. The milk production of the lovely cow is really poor. Every one says "they must be saved" but no one want to keep them because they are out of date. There is a diffence between lovely and productive.
Some keeps mini pigs in their living room, because they are "lovely".

But properly bred amm can be productive and gentle, and even after a dreadful summer/winter most amm keepers find themselves in the position that they dont need to restock with loads of imported packages.

 

[Jimbo]

The Colonsay bees are not only Amm but are also varroa free. It is the Scottish goverment not the UK goverment who wish to protect this unique genetic resource and has asked various interested parties including the Scottish Beekeeping Association on their views.
There are up to 50 colonies on this island and have been there for at least 35 years with no signs of inbreeding , which in itself is interesting.

 

[Dared]

Has anyone ever produce a comparison of the bees available in the UK or is it to difficult/diverse due to the local variations?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

IIRC the same ROB Manley who imported, bred and sold Italian queens. No bias there then.

As did everyone else then - I was simply underlining the fact that although AMM was not the choice for him he was in a way singing their praises and not like others, condemning black bees as nasty, vicious non productive monsters - he only mentioned that they were a bit 'nervous' on inspections. I do believe however that he was wrong in saying that the British black bee was no more although it is interesting on his comments on 'local mongrels'

 

[Finman]

But properly bred amm can be productive and gentle, and even after a dreadful summer/winter most amm keepers find themselves in the position that they dont need to restock with loads of imported packages.

listen now.

finland is a cold country. We have Italians, Carniolans and Buckfast and something rare stocks,

but no Black Bees any more. Caucasin bee had a short star flight, about 10 years. It not popular either in the world.

Black bee has nothing such good feature which other races do not have.

But the main key is that they are breeded carefully in Finland. There diffuculties with imported queens because they have not local calender which tell when winter is coming.

Breeding works continue here all the time. Guys try different bee stocks. One breeder said that he has queens from China, Columbia, Egypt, Frange, Russia and what ever. Breeders have often network where they discuss about features of new genomes.

Modern breeder do not try to make "pure races". That is nonsense. We allready have seen what they are. They try to get hybrid effects and special genes which protect for example against diseases.

.Pure race is a human term. Nature try towards crossings.

But our queen markets are narrow. Not a big business. And summer is short.
.
.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But properly bred amm can be productive and gentle, and even after a dreadful summer/winter most amm keepers find themselves in the position that they dont need to restock with loads of imported packages.

which is why I'm gradually going over to the (for the sake of harmony shall we call it ) 'darker more native' bee