Advice please, virgins? Supercedure cells and the best way forward.

[Markthebuilder]

Hi all thoughts and advice/ critique on the following please. Sorry it’s long.

The hive I previously provided a new marked queen in September last year survived and on first inspection this year I found an unmarked queen laying well.... I marked her but have been concerned about a) the amount of chalk brood in this hive ( but did wonder if I had been responsible by inspecting when too cold) and b.) her apparent sporadic laying . Ie she appears to lay a batch and then take a week off , the she appeared to become a drone layer with drones being laid in worker cells. But the that-seamed to resolve itself. And she she has laid so great sections of workers,
At the weekend I added a supper and swapped out a 14x12 one sided hollowed capped hooey frame for one with new foundation in order to provide some additional space. I didn’t see the queen or eggs but did see brood at all stages.

I also decided that I would try split this hive by one means or another and tonight checked the hive for sing-off gigs or queen. .
Frame 2 had a capped supercedure cell on it the new frame no3 was being built out nicely then on fram 4 a capped superceduer cell..... ok?? Then on frame 6 I spotted an unusually shiny black creature my first thought was some sort of beetle but on closer inspection it was a bee about the size of a worker but no fuz and very shiny almost wet looking, other bees appear to be greating it-and could have been feeding it??? Was this a virgin.????? Took out phone to photo it and phone dead. Decided to destroy any other queen cells and find the one she had hatched from to be sure it was a virgin and I was trying to decide wether to put her in a nuc or the supercedure cell I had found on frame 2 earlier into a nuc. I was wondering how I had missed the cell she had hatched from at the weekend, then frame 8 another 2 supercedure cells which I destroyed frame 9 suprize I found the old queen.....panic what to do...... I decided to put old queen in Abu with some baas some empty drawn comb a frame of capped honey and shook in some frames of bees.
I then managed to get stung a mass off times on the hand by bees on the outside of the nuc when I tried to pick it up. At the same time I realised bees were filling my work boot and crawling up my leg, I closed everything up pronto took some cetrazeen and came in to get a change and grad something to eat, I have been back out since and rescued some groups of bees of the floor and moved the nuc to anew location in garden.

your thoughts advice answers please

1 did I see a vergin?
2 I now have a nuc with old queen in new location.
What should I do with old hive containing at least 2 copped supercedure cells and possibly a virgin.

thanks in advance sorry it’s long

 

[jeff33]

What you saw is a hairless worker bee usually associated with CBPV, so I think, and what you did by removing all Qcs without understanding what's what was probably not to be done. Please stop using the term supercedure cells especially when you have that many, they're not, even in the middle of the frame! I think they're probably swarm cells. I would remove that queen and put a frame of eggs from a good colony they can raise a descent queen from rather than carry on with her genetics.

 

[Boston Bees]

"Advice please, virgins?"

Well, that got my attention. All a bit of a let down after that

 

[drex]

Shiny wet bee could well be CBPV as said.
That many Queen cells probably indicate swarming.
One method of swarm prevention is to remove queen into nuc, so we'll done.
Reduce remaining cells down to one, or split them up into their own nucs.

 

[hemo]

Agree with Jeff introduce eggs or very young larvae (just hatched) from another colony remove all queens (VQ or mated) and knock down any cells not on the intro frame. Don't perpetuate bad genes.

Alternately re- queen.

 

[Markthebuilder]

What you saw is a hairless worker bee usually associated with CBPV, so I think, and what you did by removing all Qcs without understanding what's what was probably not to be done. Please stop using the term supercedure cells especially when you have that many, they're not, even in the middle of the frame! I think they're probably swarm cells. I would remove that queen and put a frame of eggs from a good colony they can raise a descent queen from rather than carry on with her genetics.

What you saw is a hairless worker bee usually associated with CBPV, so I think, and what you did by removing all Qcs without understanding what's what was probably not to be done. Please stop using the term supercedure cells especially when you have that many, they're not, even in the middle of the frame! I think they're probably swarm cells. I would remove that queen and put a frame of eggs from a good colony they can raise a descent queen from rather than carry on with her genetics.

Thanks for the reply Jeff, haveing looked at some photos bees with CBPV I believe that is what I saw. Currently reading up on CBVP to inform my next action

 

[Markthebuilder]

"Advice please, virgins?"

Well, that got my attention. All a bit of a let down after that

 

[Markthebuilder]

Shiny wet bee could well be CBPV as said.
That many Queen cells probably indicate swarming.
One method of swarm prevention is to remove queen into nuc, so we'll done.
Reduce remaining cells down to one, or split them up into their own nucs.

Thank you Drex for the encouraging response,

 

[Markthebuilder]

Agree with Jeff introduce eggs or very young larvae (just hatched) from another colony remove all queens (VQ or mated) and knock down any cells not on the intro frame. Don't perpetuate bad genes.

I am thinking on this. Do you you consider that the CBVP, the potential for chalk brood and the apparent sporadic laying as all being directly related to genes.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am thinking on this. Do you you consider that the CBVP, the potential for chalk brood and the apparent sporadic laying as all being directly related to genes.

There is concern that Buckfast with Danish in them are more prone to CBPV
Chalkbrood can be remedied by requeening with a resistant queen
So yes but it's not as simple as that. There are other factors at play

 

[hemo]

Being viral some colonies deal with it, recommendation is to give bees more space, But in your case having chalk brood as well maybe the colony is stressed and the virus coming to the fore. If it is only the odd bee they may ride it out, it shortens adult bees lives very quickly so likelihood is you may have missed more. Any dead on the ground in front ?

With the added chalk brood might be worth a re -queen from another source or another of your colonies if they are a different strain.

Sporadic laying could be a side affect or she like the colony is sick.

 

[Markthebuilder]

Thank you all for the replies.
I used the term suppercedure, because of the position of the queen cells and the idea that bees were trying to replace the queen supported my concerns about chalk brood and Sparodic laying .

So queen now in a hive with new clean comb +stores and I will monitor how she performs.

I split the old hive in 2 however when I went through the frames there were no queen cells . I’m certain I left at least two and even by my standards of bee keeping I don’t believe they could have been more than 14 days and more likely only @ day 9

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I used the term suppercedure, because of the position of the queen cells

Supersedure cells can be positioned anywhere, certainly not slap bang in the middle of the frame unless it's the frame on the extreme edge of the brood. They are just more likely to be on the extremities of the nest so (remembering the nest is in three dimensions) discreetly tucked in next to the side bars is a frequent find

 

[Markthebuilder]

Ignoring everything else I have said, and reflecting on what has happened to my favoured hives over the last couple of years,
I think I have been too late giving them room, they have Likely swarmed leavening me with a virgin queens.. leading to a period of no eggs that I have wrongly interpreted as a poorly performing queens.
As for the split I have just performed the hive left in situ with all foragers is in full flow wether there is a virgin in there we will see in due course .
The nuc I created dose have a dozen dead bees in-front of it so concerned CBVP will finish it off .
The hive I created with the queen I’m pleased to say doesn’t have any dead outside I will give her another couple of days and then see what’s happening .
I have bought some more equipment so I can better manage either a positive or negative outcome.