A Welsh Flow Hive Harvest

[Swarm]

So is Botulinus the only pathogen creeping around out there? I'm afraid you're all chasing a hare sprung by that little maggot Truble in his efforts to troll Karol.

Quite.
I mentioned hygiene early on, nothing to do with anything other than open air production. All sorts can end up in the buckets along with the honey and filling all those buckets sounds like a long wait. Took ten supers off last weekend, I wonder how long it would take to flow that into buckets.

 

[Tremyfro]

Quite.
I mentioned hygiene early on, nothing to do with anything other than open air production. All sorts can end up in the buckets along with the honey and filling all those buckets sounds like a long wait. Took ten supers off last weekend, I wonder how long it would take to flow that into buckets.

I don't think many flows are drained in the open air...most did the same as I did...used a tube and a cover over the jar....so no exposure at all.
I think also you haven't quite realised that the honey is harvested as it is capped....the empty frame can then be refilled. So you wouldn't really be adding lots of supers..well that is the idea. I will be interested to see if it works like that if we get a good summer next year. It doesn't take very long to drain a frame...and you have to be aware that once you walk away with your bucket or box of jars....that's it job done. Whereas....when you get home with your supers...you have to the process of extraction...done in the air... in your chosen location...filtering...settling...jarring up.
I'm not knocking the normal extraction from supers....as I have some still to do...but the extraction from the flow frames was amazingly easy.
As for hygiene.....I think the honey is extracted under good hygienic conditions of the flow is at least or even better than honey extracted by crush and strain and by machine.
We have looked at the research about honey in general and it applies to all honey not just the flow honey.
I'm sure beekeepers use disposable nitrile gloves, clean the extractor between extractions, extract in a clean room, keep pets and insects out, clean the filters, use clean jars and so on.
However...in the short time I have been a beekeeper...I have seen dirty beekeeping suits, supers on the ground and put in the back of vans and cars without anything clean under them, extractors caked with wax, crush and strain using bare hands, pets wandering around, flies and bees and wasps in attendance. I don't suppose I am alone in witnessing these unhygienic practises.
I tried out the flow and I like the flow extraction method...I'm not trying to convince you that you should do it but only to inform you of what happened and what it was like to extract in that way.

 

[Hivemaker.]

So you wouldn't really be adding lots of supers..well that is the idea.

Supers are not just added for honey, they are given so the bees have enough room.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Supers are not just added for honey, they are given so the bees have enough room.

 

[Karol]

Tremyfro, I'm not going to rehearse the arguments all over again. However, I do think that comparing the worst of extraction practices with the best of Flow harvest is frankly miss guided. The two systems are different with different risks. Attempting to compare them from a 'hygienic' perspective shows a fundamental lack of understanding of risk. From memory C. perfringens takes all of 6.3 minutes under the right conditions to go ballistic. It is found as spores in honey. The trough is an ideal incubator if the conditions suit. All it takes is concurrent fermentation, a little bit if extra moisture and a honey variety with a low MIC and the harvest sold and used within a few days to prep a meat dish and someone could pay a very high price.

So the advice from Flow hive is to squirt some water into the incubator before harvest. Really? How long before? 10 minutes? 8 hours? 8 days?

Not good enough Tremyfro.

In my professional opinion, and I'll state it again; the frames should be cleaned and dried after each harvest before the next crop starts to be laid down.

 

[Swarm]

I don't think many flows are drained in the open air...most did the same as I did...used a tube and a cover over the jar....so no exposure at all.

Somehow I doubt that.

I think also you haven't quite realised that the honey is harvested as it is capped....the empty frame can then be refilled.

Oh I think I have. Good luck harvesting by that method.

So you wouldn't really be adding lots of supers..well that is the idea.

Already mentioned above, where does your colony live?

I will be interested to see if it works like that if we get a good summer next year. It doesn't take very long to drain a frame...and you have to be aware that once you walk away with your bucket or box of jars....that's it job done. Whereas....when you get home with your supers...you have to the process of extraction...done in the air... in your chosen location...filtering...settling...jarring up.

And good luck if we do get a good Summer, I'd expect you to be very busy with the bees, like daily.

I'm not knocking the normal extraction from supers....as I have some still to do...but the extraction from the flow frames was amazingly easy.
As for hygiene.....I think the honey is extracted under good hygienic conditions of the flow is at least or even better than honey extracted by crush and strain and by machine.
We have looked at the research about honey in general and it applies to all honey not just the flow honey.
I'm sure beekeepers use disposable nitrile gloves, clean the extractor between extractions, extract in a clean room, keep pets and insects out, clean the filters, use clean jars and so on.
However...in the short time I have been a beekeeper...I have seen dirty beekeeping suits, supers on the ground and put in the back of vans and cars without anything clean under them, extractors caked with wax, crush and strain using bare hands, pets wandering around, flies and bees and wasps in attendance. I don't suppose I am alone in witnessing these unhygienic practises.
I tried out the flow and I like the flow extraction method...I'm not trying to convince you that you should do it but only to inform you of what happened and what it was like to extract in that way.

Not sure what constitutes a dirty suit but as you don't process honey through it, I don't see this point. Most suits more than 12 months old are stained with propolis and whatever. As for supers on the ground and in vans, pets and the rest, didn't you say something? All the beekeepers I know are very responsible, all honey covered and surfaces scrupulously clean.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Already mentioned above, where does your colony live?

I've wondered how the bees ripen the honey and where the tuckered out foragers sleep at night.

Looking at beginners with Flow hives particularly in the States their bees are swarming all over the place.

 

[Tremyfro]

I think it is fruitless to persue this post any further.
I don't think that anyone has suggested not giving the bees sufficient space in a flow hive system...after all it is a colony in a hive and a beekeeper looks after the bees. The flow is simply a super...only instead of taking it away to harvest the honey...you can do that in situ. I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't look after the bees in the normal way.
I'm not going to go through the whole spectrum of possible of spores, bacteria and other infectants....looking to infect honey specifically harvested from the flow in comparison to more regular extraction methods.
I started this thread to inform the forum of how the frames performed...since there was so much critism of the frames on the forum.
I do take all the points about risks of contaminants in honey seriously but I don't think that honey harvested from the flow frames pose any greater threat than any other method of extraction.

 

[Karol]

I think it is fruitless to persue this post any further.
<snip>

It's not fruitless Tremyfro. This is important stuff which needs to be got right.

Personally I don't care if you're an early adopter or a sceptic. What I do care about and have spent all my professional life doing is working in the patient interest. So, just as I will tell smokers to stop smoking even if they are people I've never met before so I'm informing you that the risk with Flow hives is different to that of orthodox extraction. What I'm not saying is don't do it. What I am definitely saying (through you to the Flow hive community) is be aware of the risks and act responsibly.

I do take all the points about risks of contaminants in honey seriously but I don't think that honey harvested from the flow frames pose any greater threat than any other method of extraction.

I get that you don't think there's a greater threat Tremyfro. But it's not about what you 'think' on a 'personal' level. It's about assurance of safety which is a whole different ball game.

 

[Cussword]

I wasn't referring to JBM. It was with reference to the Flow Hive forum.

My mistake, sorry.

 

[Swarm]

I've wondered how the bees ripen the honey and where the tuckered out foragers sleep at night.

Looking at beginners with Flow hives particularly in the States their bees are swarming all over the place.

Hence my comment about being busy .... extracting frames and collecting swarms. But since the bees need space, what goes on? more flow supers? if that were the case you'd be living at the apiary, constantly flowing off honey. The whole concept doesn't seem practical with more than a hive or two and not even then, really.
All my comments have been based on a does this offer beneficial aspects to beekeeping. It doesn't IMO.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just a toy for those with more money than sense.
Whatever did happen to K-Tel after Woolworths went bust?

 

[pargyle]

Just a toy for those with more money than sense.
Whatever did happen to K-Tel after Woolworths went bust?

Oddly enough - they are still going strong but made the leap into Internet Sales before Woolies demise ... Phil Kives, the founder of K-Tel died this year in April but the company continues - Nearly 50 years of selling widgets and knock off music to the masses.

I worked for Woolworths in the 1970's and you would not believe how many Magic Brushes and Veg-o-Matics we sold ...

But do you remember RONCO ... another purveyor of miracle aids to things we never realised needed aiding ...

I'll bet you have a Smokeless Ashtray' or a 'Pocket Fisherman' stashed away in the loft somewhere !

They DID go bust in 2007 ... not sure why ? Might be that there were fewer smokers and fewer people fishing in pockets ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hence my comment about being busy .... extracting frames and collecting swarms. But since the bees need space, what goes on? more flow supers? if that were the case you'd be living at the apiary, constantly flowing off honey. The whole concept doesn't seem practical with more than a hive or two and not even then, really.
All my comments have been based on a does this offer beneficial aspects to beekeeping. It doesn't IMO.

Well you would add traditional supers I guess. Have a bit of both. Honey on tap and cut comb.
A lady beekeeper who documents her progress on her web site and YouTube has split all her hives some more than once so I suppose they don't get that crowded.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Here you are Tremyfro
This is what I got from my BKA this afternoon.



Hi All,
A request from Grant Williams, concerning the next edition of the Welsh Beekeeper.
Jan

Just a quick note to ask your members for any articles they may have for the next issue of the

Welsh Beekeeper. Things like what did people do to prepare for winter, and jobs they do over winter,

how was the honey crop this year? Do any of your members have experience in using ‘different’ hive

types? Has anyone got any pictures they would like us to consider using as a cover?

Also, as we’re planning the articles for the year; is there a particular subject members would like addressing?

Could I also ask that all associations take a quick look at your page on the WBKA web site and verify that all details are correct, also the contact details that appear in the Welsh Beekeeper.

All the best,

Grant,

Editor Welsh Beekeeper

Estuary Lodge,
High Street, Talsarnau,
Harlech, LL47 6TA

Tel: 01766 771155
==============================================


Go for it

 

[Tremyfro]

Ha ha...I would probably have to leave the country to avoid the beekeepery attacks!

 

[Heather]

How dont you get honey with high water content draniing with the capped. Surely some in the area.

 

[user 6228]

Ha ha...I would probably have to leave the country to avoid the beekeepery attacks!

hard facts beats scepticism

Take measurements of things such as
water content,
honey viscosity,
fructose/glucose ratio
frame weights before and after extraction as well as clean and dry,
time to drain.
Try and do some microbe counts.

All of these can be done with simple instruments. refractometer, polarimeter etc.. most of which cant be bought off ebay for not a lot.

Collect the data and publish it. I'm sure you will find it fascinating to know the real hard truth what ever it turns out to be

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ha ha...I would probably have to leave the country to avoid the beekeepery attacks!

No
A scientific treatise is not what's needed. What is is a description of how you set it up and enjoyed it and how your family enjoyed the honey. You're quite a wordsmith. You should do it. Get a couple of the grandchildren to join in.

 

[user 6228]

No
A scientific treatise is not what's needed. What is is a description of how you set it up and enjoyed it and how your family enjoyed the honey. You're quite a wordsmith. You should do it. Get a couple of the grandchildren to join in.

going all "post truth" eh?
never mind the facts feel the emotion?