A sugar dissolving question for the maths boffs

[ugcheleuce]

Hello everyone

I'm investigating fondant recipes posted by beekeepers. I've narrowed it down to Doug Brown's recipe and Rusty Burlew's recipe (for the moment), and right now I'm trying to determine the viability of Rusty's recipe. For this, I need some calculations, if you are able.

Suppose you mix 174 ml of water and 5 ml of vinegar, you bring it to the boil, you then turn down the heat so that it simmers, and then you add 830 g of sugar, and you keep stirring, without turning up the heat (i.e. maintaining the heat at which it simmered before you added the sugar)... how long will it take for the sugar to dissolve completely?

My gut feeling is: a very, very long time. Am I right?

Thanks
Samuel

(You can either add all sugar at once, or add a tablespoon of sugar at a time and only add more sugar when the existing sugar has dissolved... but there is 55 tablespoons in 830 g of sugar.)

 

[JWF]

That amount of sugar is just about the maximum amount of sugar you can dissolve in boiling water. So you can get it to dissolve, but it will recrystallise pretty quickly once the temperature drops!

I assume that as you're making fondant, you won't actually want the sugar to fully dissolve anyway, and you'll also need to keep the temp well below 100 Deg C due to the formation of HMF.

 

[For want of a better word]

There is a thread somewhere on the BKF about making fondant.
Beecraft this quarter ran some interesting articles.

Sugar + an acid will produce HMFF

Fondant recipe is something like 1kg white granulated 600ml water 25g liquid glucose... bring to 117 degrees C... cool rapidly and keep moving till cool and set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KyJOM0pejw

no need for vinegar or cream of tartar/Tartaric acid as in some older recipes

Yeghes da

 

[Goran]

https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32702&highlight=MAKING+FONDANT&page=2

https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32702&highlight=MAKING+FONDANT

Not for your math purpose, for the HMF.
No problem with hmf.. for I think about 6 years. I add also nozevit in it, some even probiotics ( for winter feed especcially).

 

[Eyeman]

There is a thread somewhere on the BKF about making fondant.
Beecraft this quarter ran some interesting articles.

Sugar + an acid will produce HMFF

Fondant recipe is something like 1kg white granulated 600ml water 25g liquid glucose... bring to 117 degrees C... cool rapidly and keep moving till cool and set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KyJOM0pejw

no need for vinegar or cream of tartar/Tartaric acid as in some older recipes

Yeghes da

The pundits say the acid in the vinegar inverts the sugar.

 

[enrico]

What amuses me is the coincidences
2lbs of sugar happens to be a litre if measured in volume rather than weight. Add that to 1pint of water and it makes almost exactly two pints!
Therefore mixing up the sugar is really easy with a litre jug, a pint jug and a two pint milk bottle!
useless info but I found it interesting! ( Geek)

 

[ugcheleuce]

That amount of sugar is just about the maximum amount of sugar you can dissolve in boiling water.

Good point.

I assume that as you're making fondant, you won't actually want the sugar to fully dissolve anyway...

Rusty's recipe requires that all sugar is dissolved before the heat is turned up to heat the mixture to 112C.

...and you'll also need to keep the temp well below 100 Deg C due to the formation of HMF.

It's not possible to make fondant without heating the mixture to at least 112C or 115C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KyJOM0pejw

Yes, adding glucose or "liquid glucose" instead of acid is an option to investigate. I know bakers do it, too. Fondant produced with glucose has different [baking] properties compared to fondant produced with acid.

No need for vinegar or cream of tartar/tartaric acid as in some older recipes

The acid speeds up the conversion of sucrose into fructose and glucose. Without acid, the conversion is a lot slower.

After all, the advantage of fondant over a sugar patty is that the fondant is high(er) in fructose and glucose.

==

One interesting thing I've learnt in my most recent "research" is this: The characteristics of the fondant depend not only on reaching the right boiling temperature, but on reaching it in the right amount of time. Guides on making fondant often contain only information about the boiling temperature and the overall sugar content, and assumes that readers will experiment until they get it right.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Some sources suggest using cream of tartar in the recipe, but both of the above point out that acid-inverted sugar is toxic to bees (LE Dills, 1925) and that if inversion is desired then only enzyme inverted sugar should be used. However, Johansson points out that "The addition of acid arrests inversion, and accelerates crystallization, which argues against the long-established rationale for inverting sugar syrup in the first instance."

I telephoned my supplier of Bakers' Fondant (used by many large-scale beekeepers in the UK) to establish the technical specifications and method of production. They tell me that the fondant consists of: sugar 74.5% ± 0.5%, glucose solids 14.5% ± 0.5%, water 11.0% ± 0.5%. The ingredients are heated just to boiling point (approx 221°F) and are then stirred in a creamer until cool. This produces a soft, fine-grain sugar paste.

I would suggest that the term "fondant" should be used only for this type of sugar paste and the term "candy" be used where the mixture is heated to a higher temperature (typically above 234°F) in order to evaporate some of the water and make a more solid product. The one thing that is clear is that it would seem to be unwise to add cream of tartar!

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/feedingcandy.html

 

[ugcheleuce]

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/feedingcandy.html

Thanks, Hivemaker. The Collins dictionary confirms it: in the UK, "fondant" is gooey (boiled at 105 °C), and in the USA, "fondant" is firm (boiled at 112+ °C). Baker's fondant or Apifonda is the gooey one.

 

[enrico]

In the oldun days we always used to boil our sugar to a hard candy. And then someone suggested bakers fondant!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

In the oldun days we always used to boil our sugar to a hard candy. And then someone suggested bakers fondant!

In the old days we endured operations without anesthetic but weve moved on.

 

[enrico]

In the old days we endured operations without anesthetic but weve moved on.

My point exactly!