A/S and super.

[parkranger]

I envisage doing an A/S on a colony soon with the intention (due in part to three colonies and two spare hives) to do so into a polynuc and then recombine.
Ordinarily, if doing an A/S into a spare wooden box, would the "swarmed" part get the existing super and should I expect problems if leaving it on the queenless box?

 

[Finman]

.
Swarmed part must be in old place and the brood part must be over the swarm and snelgrove board between. Broodpart flyes opposite direction.

 

[parkranger]

Hi Finman

Sorry but I think that I have worded my question badly.
I intend to do an A/S using a polynuc but not sure if the current super should ideally be placed on the swarmed bees whereas I will have to put it on the queenless (old) hive.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I think ... put the queen and flying bees into the nuc, but leave them on the existing hive stand, then move the frames containing everything else to a new stand - that will include the stores, so leave the super where it is.

What you're trying to do is imitate what happens when a colony swarms - the flying bees and queen leave everything else behind. You can't physically move the flying bees to a new location with an apiary, because they'll fly straight back to the old box - so you move the bees that haven't orientated.

You will need to give the queen and flying bees some food (syrup), because they won't have prepared to swarm, and so won't have any wax-building resources.

 

[Finman]

.
A false swarm needs
- a store frame instead of feeding
- a brood frame that they feel ghosy
- the queen or queen cell.
- foundations: when they draw combs they think that they have swarmed
Half of bees return to old entrance

to invent own variations, - why?


.

 

[MandF]

If you are actually considering a preventative "swarm" then you can move a frame containing a nice queen cell into a nuc, along with another brood frame and a couple with stores, and replace the frames with new foundation, and knock down all the queen cells in the original hive (thorough check!).

This allows the original hive to continue its foraging, and the new space and empty foundation should give the young bees something to think about other than swarming.

The nuc can then raise the new queen, and then if she mates ok, and is suitable, you can remove the old queen from original hive, and re-combine.

You will also need to regularly check the original hive as this wont always stop the urge to swarm!

I did this on both my hives last year, one it worked like a dream, the other decided to swarm the same day as I did the split (I think I caught them too late). Fortunately they swarmed straight into a bait hive 10 feet away

If they still want to swarm you will have to a/s.

This isnt what you should do, just another option to try out if you wish.

 

[parkranger]

Hi MandF

thks for the advice but what I really wanted to know was.... When performing an A/S on a hive that is supered, does the super have to go on the "swarmed" colony in its original position or can it be placed on the original hive in the new position. I only ask because on this occasion, I intend to use a poly nuc for the A/S bees and obviously can't put the super on top although logically that's where I think it should go.

 

[Swarm]

The super stays with the original hive, BeeJoyful explained everything already.

 

[Cazza]

I envisage doing an A/S on a colony soon with the intention (due in part to three colonies and two spare hives) to do so into a polynuc and then recombine.
Ordinarily, if doing an A/S into a spare wooden box, would the "swarmed" part get the existing super and should I expect problems if leaving it on the queenless box?

I can't imagine a polynuc will be big enough??
Cazza

 

[MandF]

Hi MandF

thks for the advice but what I really wanted to know was.... When performing an A/S on a hive that is supered, does the super have to go on the "swarmed" colony in its original position or can it be placed on the original hive in the new position. I only ask because on this occasion, I intend to use a poly nuc for the A/S bees and obviously can't put the super on top although logically that's where I think it should go.

No, the super stays on the original site, because all the flying/foraging bees will be going back to that location and will need to store your honey somewhere!

The only bees, initially, in the "swarm" will be young/nurse bees - any foragers which are on the combs you transfer will be flying back to the original hive as soon as they return from their next flight anyway.

It is because of that you need to ensure the nuc has some stores/pollen.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[Finman]

Hi MandF

thks for the advice but what I really wanted to know was.... When performing an A/S on a hive that is supered, does the super have to go on the "swarmed" colony in its original position or can it be placed on the original hive in the new position. I only ask because on this occasion, I intend to use a poly nuc for the A/S bees and obviously can't put the super on top although logically that's where I think it should go.

when I make AS, they are allways supered. Often hive is 2 brood + 4 super. Poly nuc is too small to AS


i do not know what are you doing. Do as you like and you see results.
.

 

[MandF]

I can't imagine a polynuc will be big enough??
Cazza

It should be, as soon as it has a confirmed mated queen they can decide which queen to keep and then re-combine.

We did just this with a 5 frame polynuc last season. The one we have also has a feeder compartment if needed.

 

[MandF]

when I make AS, they are allways supered. Often hive is 2 brood + 4 super. Poly nuc is too small to AS


i do not know what are you doing. Do as you like and you see results.
.

That may be true for large colonies such as yours, but if they are doing the preventative/space making split, to raise a new queen, a nuc should be ok for the short term?

But yes, if the hive is a double brood to begin with, then taking out 2 brood frames and 2 stores is not going to give them much space to quell the swarm urge

 

[Cazza]

It should be, as soon as it has a confirmed mated queen they can decide which queen to keep and then re-combine.

We did just this with a 5 frame polynuc last season. The one we have also has a feeder compartment if needed.

Definately wouldn't be large enough for mine. Split,yes, A/S no. I'm with Finman. Parkranger stated "A/S" not a split.
Cazza
C

 

[Polyanwood]

Different strokes.

This year there is more variation in the size of my colonies than ever before. They are mongrels and some are more swarmy than others. Have started AS and demarees for swarm control. Some of the colonies are huge. Some are miserable still and only on 4 frames of brood and could easily be AS'd into a nuc. (They are frugal bees that started brooding late)

If you are unlucky enough to have small colonies of bees that are already trying to swarm, then you have my commiserations. (Worth carefully considering that is is swarming rather than supercedure of course)

 

[Finman]

Different strokes.

If you are unlucky enough to have small colonies of bees that are already trying to swarm, then you have my commiserations. (Worth carefully considering that is is swarming rather than supercedure of course)

if one box colony swarms, then it is better to change bee stock.

Once I bought Carniolan queens from Chechoslovakia and they really were like unbreeded mongrels. Swarming had no limit.

Why I use Italians is late swarming. Spleded stocks are avaiable to get easily.

If you do not select your bee stock, you must be ready for everything. But seldon ready for good things, like 150 kg honey from one hive.

AS system is formulated for normal commercial bees and not for what ever chimney mongrels.
.
.

 

[Finman]

.
When I started beekeeping, I had "national" black bee mongrels.
One hive was 4 frames and during 2 years it never become bigger because it swarmed.

First honey yield I got from one Caucasian colony, which brought 50 kg.
i had 8 hives but I did not get honey from others. Awfull bucks.

3 arvices to beekeepers:

1. select
2. Select
3.select

 

[Haughton Honey]

Different strokes.

This year there is more variation in the size of my colonies than ever before. They are mongrels and some are more swarmy than others. Have started AS and demarees for swarm control. Some of the colonies are huge. Some are miserable still and only on 4 frames of brood and could easily be AS'd into a nuc. (They are frugal bees that started brooding late)

If you are unlucky enough to have small colonies of bees that are already trying to swarm, then you have my commiserations. (Worth carefully considering that is is swarming rather than supercedure of course)

Have you thought about 'evening out' your colonies Poly?

Moving frames of brood. Switching hive positions to put all of the flyers in to weaker stocks. Tricks like that.

Now's the time to do it really.

 

[Polyanwood]

I agree Finman. For you the bees are not pets, but for me in the past and for lots of hobby beekeepers,they are.

I used to always pick up bees with pollen on thier legs that were crawling exhausted on the grass near the hive, and warm them between my hands, then carefully place them on the landing board, thinking I was doing her and the colony a favour. Now I don't do it. I know that old bees carry more disease and that it is better for the colony for old bees to die away from the hive.

Now I don't give underperforming queens a second chance. The queenlines from the tiny unproductive boxes won't be bred from. (I would requeen them now if I could, but can't source UK bred queens at the moment) If you are beginner it is difficult to know whether there is something wrong with the queen, or something wrong with your husbandry. I also think it is easier to learn with smaller colonies - less overwhelming.

 

[Polyanwood]

Have you thought about 'evening out' your colonies Poly?

Moving frames of brood. Switching hive positions to put all of the flyers in to weaker stocks. Tricks like that.

Now's the time to do it really.

Yes, I think this is a good idea, and do it a bit, but I do it less now. Perhaps it is that I don't have a good eye, but I find that mostly I get more honey overall from having a few huge colonies than from having a more moderately sized colonies. My suspicion is that the small colonies are not just small because of genetics or problems with queen. I think they are often small because there is something wrong with them. As the years pass I hope I will be able to tell by just looking at the small colonies why they are small, but at the moment I am not so confident.

I suspect nosema as the reason for the small colonies and am looking for a cheap microscope.