Expanding brood

Whats the best way of getting a colony with a new queen to expand onto new foundation. i have a commercial brood box with 5 drawn frames in it and 6 just foundation i have it set up with the foundation at right angles to the entrance to make sure the brood stays warm. the 5 drawn frame all have brood on and they are slowly drawing out 2 more frames about half of one side closest to brood drawn. i have put a 1.5ltr fast feeder on top with 50:50 syrup on it today to help as not a massive amount of stores on frames.

any suggestions of how to take it forward please.

3 weeks time and you'll have a full brood box and wondering why you asked.

Just give them a drop of feed and let them do it as they need. You can of course cross new drawn comb with only a little laying in with a frame of fuller capped brood.

I would just leave them to it at this time of year.

Baggy

We had a similar situation, with the queen filling up all the available space with brood, and the foragers bringing in so much store there is little space to expand into. I wanted to encourage the bees to draw out more comb so provide extra space, so today we have moved things around a little following advice from a previous thread here (sorry couldn't
remember when, who, or, indeed, find the thread again). We put a frame of fresh foundation from the edge of the brood box in the middle of the six frames of estabished brood. We've also turned around one of the outer frames, so that the drawn side is facing away from the frames occupied by the colony and the undrawn side is facing the colony. Hoping that this time next week, we will have nine fully drawn combs.

Hope this helps.

LJ

This is not what the books recommend, but a certain Polyhive of this parish recommends it and it works. Take one of the frames they are starting to draw, and stick it slap in the middle of the brood nest. When you come back a week later, it will be drawn, and full of eggs/larvae. Assuming they have done this, repeat, and quite quickly you will get 10 frames of brood. If they haven't managed to draw and lay up all of it, give them another week to finish the job before repeating.

(This of course assumes that the colony is healthy, and there is no material reason for them not expanding)

If you read Ted Hooper's book there's a good chapter in there about how to encourage the queen to expand the brood

Alan Champion - Bee at the bottom of the garden

Alan's spring brood spreading method is



He goes on to say -

Spring Brood Spreading: The rules of brood spreading state that the frames containing brood can be juggled, but that the nest nest must never be split into two by a broodless frame. This would act as a natural barrier to the queen and one side of the split brood nest might then be neglected so that egg laying would be depressed, not stimulated.

Click to expand...

I have inserted frames of drawn comb inside the brood nest area without any issues, the queen has laid up a good pattern on both sides within a few days but only IF the colony is strong enough and covering every frame of the brood nest area plus the new drawn frame which is inserted. I would not insert an undrawn frame or a frame full of crystallized stores within the brood nest and divide it but place them next to the brood nest and found a week later they had been drawn out / mostly cleared respectively.

Don't forget the effect of the empty space that the bees need to keep warm for not only brood rearing but also wax production. It may be summer, but temperatures fall overnight. Personally I'd make sure you were always two frames ahead of the bees with foundation, and close down the rest with a dummy board. Frame shuffling fine, but within these parameters.

Since PH has yet to chip in - the hooper and campion methods are both very conservative and safe. However, splitting the brood with a (or even two) frame(s) of foundation or comb in the middle works. as does bruising and turning the outer brood frames. Gives HM 4 more sides to use. Process can be repeated at following inspections until box full.

the 5 drawn frame all have brood on and they are slowly drawing out 2 more frames

To answer your question: When they have more bees to draw the comb and require more space. When the brood on those 5 frames emerges, they will accelerate the brood nest growth, given a warm hive and a flow.

Regards feeding, one of the main questions at an inspection centre around the stores: Is there sufficient to last until the next inspection? And are stores increasing or decreasing? Decisions on feeding should be based on that.

Experience helps, mind, and it is better to err on the too much stores than not enough (dead colony or dead brood). The next inspection should leave less doubt in any decision.

Regards, RAB

I read about how PH puts in a frame of foundation and splitting the brood so the bees draw the comb and accelerate the brood nest growth, no one I know uses this method so I thought I would give it a try
I have around 5 nucs exspanding in nicely now in full size bb covering eight frames with on average five to six of brood in all stages,so yesterday morning made up some frames and did my inspections and place frames splitting the brood, unfortunatly I had not made up enough frames so one nuc was short of a frame
As we were out for the rest of the day the other frame had to wait until I could place it in the nuc that evening
when placing the frame in the nuc I had a look at the frame with new foundation and to my amazement it was nearly fully drawn both sides, the frame had only been in the nuc for around nine hours
Thanks for the tip PH

Will come back to this.

PH

drstitson said:

Since PH has yet to chip in - the hooper and campion methods are both very conservative and safe. However, splitting the brood with a (or even two) frame(s) of foundation or comb in the middle works. as does bruising and turning the outer brood frames. Gives HM 4 more sides to use. Process can be repeated at following inspections until box full.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what we did - watch this space and I will report back following our next inspection on Saturday. We did this with two colonies, in a similar state (both are healthy, vigorous, and the queens are both laying for England).

Fabulous diagrams, drstitson. Most impressed!

LJ

just two minutes with photoshop using Mike A's original (taken from latest edition of Hooper i presume - mine prev. ed. is in B&W!).

Leave the bees alone, don't mess with them and they'll expand as they wish is my view. if there is plenty of forage, then you may not need to feed much. Assuming you have an OMF, then it doesn't matter which way they are facing wrt the entrance. You can put foundation in the middle of the brood but it should only be done (IMO) when there are plenty of bees as you'll be splitting the brood nest.

Splitting the brood that horror story.

Many years a go I had an ob hive getting too strong. So I removed the one frame of brood and replaced it with a foundation. This colony was on a brood and a half, to spell it out one brood frame and one super frame. So a very small unit.

18 hours later the foundation was partly drawn out and the top third laid up.

Right. So now we are discussing a thriving five frame nuc which is ready to move up to a Brood box. I put in a frame of foundation next to the wall, or drawn if you prefer and have it, then three frames of brood, a frame of foundation, the remaining two frames of brood then a foundation and fill out the rest with what you have handy. A week later I fully expect at a minimum to see 6 frames of brood and two halves on the outer side of the brood nest. I would turn them in and add another in the middle again making 10 on the following inspection.

Leave them alone if you want, this method if for those who want to get their bees working. There is nothing new about it amongst the Bee Farmers fraternity but seemingly not so well know amongst the amateurs.

I have my bees working with and for me, it's just easier than working against them.

PH

hi

a quick update for all those that gave me some suggestions.

today i did my inspections. would normally do this on a sat but saw the forcast lol. this is wat i did. the smallest hive i just turned the outer frames 180. the other 2 i turned the outer frames 180 plus put a frame with just foundation in the middle.

1 hive has just 3 frames with just foundation. 1 has 4 frames foundation and 1 has 5frames foundation. they are getting there. the 2 smaller ones are still being fed syrup as they are mostly just brood very little stores, but the biggest has equivilant of 2 frames of stores on the top of the 8 brood frames so think its ok.

ty Poly for explaining wat u do so well.

When the brood on those 5 frames emerges, they will accelerate the brood nest growth, given a warm hive and a flow.

I used PH's frame method with my nuc and it suddenly seemed to explode exponetially as per Rab's advice.

I have always forced the bees a little as described by Poly hive, which seems to work well in the south from mid June onwards.

One question i would like to ask though is how late in the season will bees draw comb? I was told years ago that bees were not too keen after first week of July - obviously does not apply to swarms.

is this correct?

sorry should have said i do it earlier too but am far more cautious earlier in the season.

I used to strip the brood boxes in late September after the heather and then feed heavily. 4 gallons per hive was the initial feed.

I gave them at least one frame of foundation to draw to replace frames which were past their life span and or blew in the extractor.

PH