Stupid virgin queens

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When I kept mating nucs, which has built so that normal box was devided to 4 cells, virgins often moved from cell to cell and killed each other. Only one was often alive after 2 days. They peeped inside the box and called each others to fight.

Another case is that workers do not notice the virgin, they feel uncomfortable and they search better home. The virgin comes with then. A piece of brood keep them calm in their nuc.

Third possibility is that queen drifted to the another nuc or it has landed to rest on the wall of the another nuc.

B+. said:

Queens are still developing when they emerge from their cell. This takes between 5 and 7 days, although the average of 6 days is usually quoted. They can then go on their mating flights if the weather is good enough.
In answer to your question; yes. Honeybee queens do perform orientation flights http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/Bee_Culture/BC2010-07.pdf

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B+. said:

I think most people are missing the point that these were only about two days after emergence.

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Thanks for the link, B+, and for clarifying the age of your virgins, but I'm still a bit confused. If No. 50 ended up in the wrong nuc, I'd supposed that she must have flown. I know that when a hive with virgins on the point of emergence is disturbed, (ie. opened up by me, the interfering beekeeper!), they will fly - straight out of the cell. Could a disturbance such as transfer to a mating nuc prompt flight? (following which she ended up in the wrong box, etc??? ) Only a(nother) thought

B+. said:

Queens are still developing when they emerge from their cell. This takes between 5 and 7 days, although the average of 6 days is usually quoted. They can then go on their mating flights if the weather is good enough.
In answer to your question; yes. Honeybee queens do perform orientation flights http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/Bee_Culture/BC2010-07.pdf

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Virgin Qs can fly (short distances anyway) within minutes (possibly seconds) of emerging from their QC.

When you are removing (surplus) sealed QCs from a hive, and if any of them look to be (or could possibly be) anywhere near emergence ... don't set them down in the open and turn your back on them.
Put them in a box with a lid, or squash them before setting them down.
Just sayin' ...

itma said:

Virgin Qs can fly (short distances anyway) within minutes (possibly seconds) of emerging from their QC.

When you are removing (surplus) sealed QCs from a hive, and if a:

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Now you are talking about swarm cells. They are even 2 days old inside the cell and ready to fly.

Normal queens in queen rearing emerge earlier. They are light colored and wings are very soft. They cannot fly. They even walk very slowly.

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Yes. Queens can fly short distances and this would have been enought. I have no doubt that my interference was wrong and that caused the loss of 51. It may have been the confusion that allowed 50 to gain entry to a different colony.
Oh well, another lesson learned.

Finman said:

Normal queens in queen rearing emerge earlier. They are light colored and wings are very soft. They cannot fly. They even walk very slowly.

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The behaviour of queens that emerge in an incubator is quite different from those that emerge in a colony. They do not emit a challenge to other queens and they do not fly. They walk very slowly and part of the procedure after marking a queen is to allow the virgin to walk freeely over your hand to ensure her legs and wings are ok. They don't even attempt to fly. They are only really interested in food. I always put a little honey in the bottom of the nicot cage so the queen has something to eat.
I have heard of some people putting nurse bees in the Nicot cage just prior to emergence so the queen always has bees around her but this is an extra complication that would make the marking more cumbersome.

bontbee said:

Could a disturbance such as transfer to a mating nuc prompt flight? (following which she ended up in the wrong box, etc??? )

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Rarely. I find that queens I have emerged in an incubator usually walk/run rather than fly.
They are introduced asap (i.e. on the same day) after emergence. Usually this is within a couple of hours.
My main concern is that the nuc will accept the virgin. After all, it has taken a certain amount of effort to get to that stage. It would be a shame if they killed the queen straight away (and this has happened in the past...the trick is to only use young nurse bees that have been queenless for a while (e.g. overnight)).

B+. said:

My main concern is that the nuc will accept the virgin. After all, it has taken a certain amount of effort to get to that stage. )).

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I have tried to give a new emerged Queen to the queenless hive. Bees give no attention to it but after 2 days the Queen is away. This has happened again and again.

Finman said:

I have tried to give a new emerged Queen to the queenless hive. Bees give no attention to it but after 2 days the Queen is away. This has happened again and again.

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Have you tried using the bees from a cell raiser colony? These will have been queenless for longer. Also, if they have come from frames of emerged brood, you will have a mixture of ages (closer to a real swarm) in the nuc.

They are introduced asap (i.e. on the same day) after emergence.-

That answers my post as to age of queen. 'Two days after introduction' was insufficiently definitive!

B+. said:

Have you tried using the bees from a cell raiser colony? These will have been queenless for longer. Also, if they have come from frames of emerged brood, you will have a mixture of ages (closer to a real swarm) in the nuc.

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The bees who reared the queens?

Of course it works. I meant that if I change the queen to the just emerged, bees seem to accept first the soft virgin, but then they kill it very often.

Nowadays I make mating nucs from the hive which reared the virgin. No losses when they get the queen.

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oliver90owner said:

They are introduced asap (i.e. on the same day) after emergence.-

That answers my post as to age of queen. 'Two days after introduction' was insufficiently definitive!

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My apologies for being imprecise. I had some spare queens so I checked acceptances incase I had some rejections.

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Queen acceptance is complex.

Time of the summer
How long layed after mating
They rear however their own which kill accepted foreigner

If they do not accept this Queen, they may accept the next one.

I have learned their tricks and I rarely loose Queens. 50% I change so that I take off the old queen and I put the new one to walk on the comb. In August this does not work.

You'll never believe this....
I found queen 50 in a different nuc (that was queenless). This time she had been mated and had eggs/larvae.
I wonder how many times this happens and we don't notice it. I only noticed it this year because my queens are numbered.

That is beekeeping for you. Not their natural environment, as far as colonies being crowded together is concerned. Perhaps queenless colony bees divert her to their patch?

She won't be doing it again, that is for sure!

oliver90owner said:

Perhaps queenless colony bees divert her to their patch?

She won't be doing it again, that is for sure!

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I'm convinced thats true. I think she just ran out the front door of her original colony in all the excitement, but, to do it twice is more than a coincidence.
The way they're packing in the bean honey, she'll need a 10 frame box pretty soon anyway or she'll become honey-bound