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cheap shot, hivemaker

VEG said:

So you didnt see the queen so therefore you are q-?
What are you now going to do about it though?
The reason I say it is a no no is there are lots of new beeks on here will read it and think it is ok to do

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+1 And the reason I say this is bees build their nest to keep it the way they want it building brace comb between frames and adding bits here and there, I have one hive that you can't see between a few frames for bits they have added over the winter

richardbees said:

cheap shot, hivemaker

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So have you united them with another colony, re queened them, or going to let them die off.

richardbees said:

Loads of bees and stores but no sealed brood and an obvious patch of empty polished cells ready and waiting for eggs ....obviously I'll leave until the Spring but assume it's Q-

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Would they prepare cells for egg laying if there was no queen?

Hi all,
I pulled two frames on my PH at the time of OA as I wanted to make sure that it did not have any sealed brood. I considered that important. because I had not treated that hive in Aug. due to supercedure queen that was not laying. 315 drop in two days, so I feel happy that I made sure that OA treatment was going to be effective for the long term health of the hive.
It did appear that the colony was getting ready for brooding, but I don't think any of my colonies have brood at the moment, because there is no pollen going in. However, they can't all be queenless, so I am not concerned on that score!
At 12C, if bees are flying, broodless and healthy IMHO the downside is that they will use more food to get temp up again. It is obviously a stress point and therefore I try to open the hives as little as poss any time of the year.

cheap shot, hivemaker

I don't think so. Smack in the black, bullseye.

Pray tell us, what would you have done about it if had you found some sealed brood? Done a skook swarm in March, followed by more oxalic?

Opening hives in mid-winter is only for emergency treatments in my book, and it should be the same for any other sensible beek.

You keep telling everyone that you treat three weeks after the first hard frost. That should have been months ago? If they had been treated effectively in the autumn and had gone into winter with healthy, virus-free bees it is highly probable that oxalic treatment was unecessary anyway.

I sometimes wonder where new beeks get crazy ideas from. Seemingly not from the good bee books, that is for sure. I've not yet found a good beekeeping book that recommends opening hives, for full inspections, in the middle of January in the UK.

oliver90owner said:

If they had been treated effectively in the autumn and had gone into winter with healthy, virus-free bees it is highly probable that oxalic treatment was unecessary anyway.

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And yet the advice given at beginners courses, by FERA and our regional inspector, not to mention most of the bee keepers that I respect, is that an autumn treatment should most definitely be followed up by winter oxalic acid.

Perhaps us new beeks get our 'crazy ideas' from listening to these people, who in this instance at least say the exact opposite of you.

I don't need your respect, thanks, I can get by very well without it, but I, and a lot on here, actually know that what I said was correct.

I can tell you that your Fera and bee inspectors (the same thing, actually, for your information) decried the use of oxalic acid ten years ago - yes, when I was using it my bee inspector was sooo much against it and proclaimed loudly that it must not be used. Seems as though I was more than a street ahead of them, even then. I can manage my bees and varroa without prophylactic treatments, thank you very much. Perhaps in years to come, you, too, might learn how, and be able to manage without it.

Perhaps you even need to read the precise wording in my post. You most definitely need to better assess your autumn treatments and likely your varroa loadings throughout the seasons, but maybe these things will improve with time. Maybe.

oliver90owner said:

I can get by very well without it, but I, and a lot on here, actually know that what I said was correct.

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I agree it was, and i cannot see on the NBU website where it recommends full inspections in the middle of January, may be though.

oliver90owner said:

I don't need your respect, thanks, I can get by very well without it.

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I most certainly did not say that I don't respect you - that inference is yours alone.

Neither did I suggest that winter inspections are in any way a good idea.

I was simply saying that current teaching and official advice recommends OA treatment in winter. It is becoming increasingly apparent that monitoring varroa drop is not always a very accurate reflection of infestation level, and so most of the beeks that I know will treat regardless of mite drop counts.

I am quite aware that the inspectors are part of FERA thank you - I'm not stupid.

You are quite correct in saying that I need to keep on top of my varroa loading. That's what learning is all about, isn't it?

As for 'maybe' - thanks for the vote of confidence.

Vramin said:

It is becoming increasingly apparent that monitoring varroa drop is not always a very accurate reflection of infestation level, and so most of the beeks that I know will treat regardless of mite drop counts.

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I agree....so what other methods of monitoring are they teaching new beekeepers, instead of just doing prophylactic treatment, athough that is possibly not such a bad idea to start with.

oliver90owner said:

I can tell you that your Fera and bee inspectors (the same thing, actually, for your information) decried the use of oxalic acid ten years ago -

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Advice from fera is always bland as by necessity it has to be 'one size fits all' and also within the framework of the law.

oliver90owner said:

I sometimes wonder where new beeks get crazy ideas from. Seemingly not from the good bee books, that is for sure. I've not yet found a good beekeeping book that recommends opening hives, for full inspections, in the middle of January in the UK.

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Well ... I'm inclined to agree with you RAB ...

Part of the problem, I feel, is that a lot of new beekeepers dive in to beekeeping without really learning to THINK about bees and what they will/can do. They follow (often conflicting or vague) advice provided by one or two books or do a bit of research on the internet (some of which provides apalling advice and suggested methods) and then listen to even more conflicting and confusing advice from a wide spectrum of beekeepers - all of whom have different (but individually correct) ways of keeping bees and dealing with a beekeeping 'problem'.

The reality is that there is no single right way of keeping bees .. the problem that often arises is when, having decided on a particular course of action or method, the newbie is influenced by the next 'good idea' or even comes across an 'oudated bad idea' and diverts down a different track without THINKING.

I think the other thing that often appears to happen is wrong diagnosis of a particular 'problem' and then the resultant panic action can be inappropriate - indeed, there may not have even been a 'problem' in the first place.

You only have to read this forum for a year or two (and this is probably one of the better beekeeping fora - if not the best) to see, just from the questions that are occasionally asked, how much confusion and lack of basic knowledge there is at times.

Unthinking behaviour is not even confined to new beekeepers .. there are a lot of people who simple follow a prescriptive path that they were 'taught' and as a result bad habits or outdated and discredited methods are perpetuated.

If there's one thing I've learnt in my (relatively short) beekeeping career it is to do your research thoroughly, have some patience and formulate a plan - and stick to it unless you are absolutely convinced that it is not working.

Unfortunately, I think the signs are that beekeeping may see a decline in the next few years as the massive number of new people who have started beekeeping (often without sufficient basic knowledge) experience frustration and possibly failure and either give up or become neglectful of their bees. Indeed, looking at the membership of this forum ... I wonder just how many of the apparently 'lapsed' members have actually given up beekeeping ?

There is a lot to be done, if this trend does materialise, to ensure that anyone in this situation is encouraged and helped to stick with it or perhaps linked with an experienced beekeeper who can guide them through the difficult times.

I have an idea that, perhaps, could go some way to making life easier for new beekeepers. 'Share a Hive' - whereby two or three new beekeepers take on the responsibility of a single hive (or two) for a season. Actually doing the beekeeping as a collective - learning as a small group is often easier than learning as an individual. A small group of people, working together, will usually solve a problem more effectively than an individual on their own. Working as a group, discussing collectively around a hive - more pairs of hands and more pairs of eyes, in the early days, has to be easier. People in a small group are also more able to secure collective knowledge - each person remembering or understanding some aspect of knowledge that a person working alone may have failed to retain or understand.

Perhaps it is something that associations could offer alongside the introductory courses ... a better start to beekeeping ? Perhaps some already do ? Or perhaps there is the possibility for those beekeepers with more than a few hives to gain a little extra income from allowing new beekeepers to gain this experience from handling some of their hives for a season... obviously for a fee ?

pargyle said:

Well ... I'm inclined to agree with you RAB ...

I have an idea that, perhaps, could go some way to making life easier for new beekeepers. 'Share a Hive' - whereby two or three new beekeepers take on the responsibility of a single hive (or two) for a season. Actually doing the beekeeping as a collective - learning as a small group is often easier than learning as an individual. A small group of people, working together, will usually solve a problem more effectively than an individual on their own. Working as a group, discussing collectively around a hive - more pairs of hands and more pairs of eyes, in the early days, has to be easier. People in a small group are also more able to secure collective knowledge - each person remembering or understanding some aspect of knowledge that a person working alone may have failed to retain or understand.

Perhaps it is something that associations could offer alongside the introductory courses ... a better start to beekeeping ? Perhaps some already do ? Or perhaps there is the possibility for those beekeepers with more than a few hives to gain a little extra income from allowing new beekeepers to gain this experience from handling some of their hives for a season... obviously for a fee ?

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Could be a recipe for an apiary punch-up, judging by the strongly held and irreconcilable differing views of members of this forum.

mbc said:

Every year i can remember where we've had it this mild so far there has been a whip in the tail, bitterly cold and snow on St Davids day isnt uncommon.

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Agree with that, always seem to have snow on or about my birthday (St Davids)

Looked at my records for 2012. Snow just before my birthday then three weeks into March I was supering up.

SteveJ

Most of the big snowfalls seem to happen in March - had heavy snows in April in the past as well

mbc said:

Pob hwyl.
Pwy syn drychyd ar ol dy wenyn ?

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Un neu ddau arno fan hyn wedi cynnig - ond fyddai adref canol mis Mai

Amari said:

Could be a recipe for an apiary punch-up, judging by the strongly held and irreconcilable differing views of members of this forum.

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Hopefully, if they started out as not being beekeeper and worked their way into beekeeping as a small group then they would start out SHARING and CONSIDERING ... and perhaps be more tolerant of differing opinions ?

I would live in hope ...

pargyle said:

Hopefully, if they started out as not being beekeeper and worked their way into beekeeping as a small group then they would start out SHARING and CONSIDERING ... and perhaps be more tolerant of differing opinions ?

I would live in hope ...

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You could invite Finman to lead the group….

Amari said:

You could invite Finman to lead the group….

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Or some other forum members for that matter.

dpearce4 said:

Sorry Veg but its not a definite no no.

If OA is to be totally effective it should be done while there is no sealed brood. The advice we were given by Sussex Uni in November was to open the hive check for any sealed brood and remove before applying the OA, this was for both drizzle and sublimation methods.

Admittedly I am surprised there is no brood in the hive that Richard opened after all we have had very warm weather this winter, so he could be right that they are Q-. Only time will tell.

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Hi dpearce,
Maybe you will agree with me... If people consider that OA treatment is so abhorrent then it makes even more sense to check that the colony has not got any sealed brood to ensure its efficacy if you are going to use it!!!
Presumably, someone (preferably more than one person) must have opened some hives in the first place for the widely held view that following three weeks of cold weather there is unlikely to be any sealed brood in the hive?
Learning is supposed to be an enjoyable experience!