Should Empty Frame(s) Be Moved To The Center?

[FritzOAQ]

I’ve searched internet for whether to move empty frames or not & have read “yes’s” & “no’s.” I’ve also arrived at the conclusion that I have no idea how a newly installed 3 lbs package of California Carniolan Package Bees should progress. So, here’s a rather lengthy description of my situation here in Southwest Virginia USA. The bees arrived 02May2023 & were put into a 10-frame brood chamber with a 2-frame wide feeder filled with 1:1 sugar water place at the edge of the box. I put pieces of wood blocking the entrance at the sides, leaving about 3 inches open at the center. It’s never appeared to be too small of an opening. Over the next 4-5 days I checked to make sure the queen had escaped her cage & that she was laying eggs - all was good. Since, I’ve looked at them every 1-2 weeks. Around 2-3 weeks ago I took the inside feeder out & put one of those quart jar feeders at the entrance. I’ll share the reason why later. So, yesterday, 17Jun2023, the bees have had almost 7 weeks in their new home. Starting at the side opposite from where the inside feeder was, the first two frames have had nothing done to them. The next frame, 3rd from the side, has nothing done on the outer side and on the inner side some comb drawn out in the center partially filled with homey. I can’t remember whether the next frame, 4th, has brood capped over on both sides or just the inner side. The next frame, 5th has brood capped on both sides & I see eggs in some empty cells. I didn’t remove any more frames but did see capped brood on the outer side of the 6th frame. On the other side, where the feeder was, the two frames that replaced the feeder have nothing done. The next frame in, 3rd, has honey & pollen on the outer side & capped brood on the inner side. I didn’t remove any more frames but did see capped brood on the outer side of the 4th frame.

I've always seen bees with pollen going into the hive. I think all of the tree blooming had past by the first week of May. There's plenty of white clover available. We rent a couple hundred acre farm for raising beef cattle. There's plenty of clover in the fields.

This next rambling I don’t think has anything to do with my question but just in case I’m sharing it. Plus, some may detect some humor lurking there. As I said this happened 2-3 weeks ago. When I was digging dead bees out of the inside feeder, I noticed some white worms. I assume they were wax mouths but have no idea if they were. I read on internet that the sugar water could become “old or contaminated.” These weren’t the words used but I don’t recall the exact description. I decided to remove the feeder. As I was pouring the sugar water out, I noticed lots more dead bees that had gone down the opening at the sides of the feeder. I then noticed an O-ring in the grass & what first looked like some white film but turned out to be instructions for assembling the feeder. I found two more O-rings and rescued the instructions. I read where the O-rings were to be used to hooked from side to side to keep the container from bulging at the top when filled. OK, I guess now is the time I try to explain why I didn’t read the instructions. I probably am a typical old white male who doesn’t read instructions when seen. But, ah, that’s the key. I never saw the instructions. The feeder arrived, all put together … at least it appeared that way to me. It was a black plastic container with a wooded board on the top with two cone “strainers” sticking down into the container for the bees to crawl in & out of to feed. I did make a poor attempt to remove the wooden top but decided that, since it was tightly wedged in place, I might have trouble getting it back in place. Sooo, I never looked in the container. Those are the facts & I’m sticking to them! Just to prove I’m not a bitter person I’m refraining from giving you my estimate of the IQ of the people who packed the feeder. I know, it’s probably pretty close to mine. ☹

I think I’ve convinced you all that it’s time for me to shut up & let you experts speak.

 

[pargyle]

At this time of the year and in your location there should be enough about for them to forage on withour excess feeding. I'd stop feeding and stop worrying. .. your have brood in all stages, a laying queen, it's a new colony and it sounds like you gave them a big box full of foundation - are you using Langstroth hives ?

I find with a new colony that it's best to just give them enough frames to cope with . say 5 or 6 ... and dummy down the rest of the box - adding frames as they draw them out and fill them.

I'd leave them be and see how they get on - doesn't sound like they need much help or fiddling with to me. They will draw the frames out as they need them. Does your crown board have a hole in it ? If so cover it - they need constant warmth in the hive to draw wax so the more you can do to assist that the better. We are big fans of insulation over here - a slab of insulation on top of the crownboard under the roof makes their work maintaining hive temperature at their optimum 35 degrees much easier.

 

[Garry R]

As a follow up to the question - do you move super frames about in the super box. ie if they are tending to chimney into the second super does it help if the full frames in the first super are moved to the edge.

Another question! , I have 4 supers on at the moment pretty full but not all sealed so what is the opinion - do you put the next empty super go above the lot or down below above the brood box? There is a good flow on so next to the BB would save a lot of carrying

 

[Erichalfbee]

do you put the next empty super go above the lot or down below above the brood box? There is a good flow on so next to the BB would save a lot of carrying

Doesn’t make any difference. I do both.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Doesn’t make any difference. I do both.

, I do it both ways - especially this season and it makes no difference

 

[ericbeaumont]

Does your crown board have a hole in it ? If so cover it - they need constant warmth in the hive to draw wax so the more you can do to assist that the better

Retention of nest heat is essential and holes in the top will make bees work harder to compensate.

Leakage may be the reason why the colony is slow to use the whole box despite a spring flow, and now plenty of clover.

Try putting one undrawn frame in the centre of the brood nest. Check after a week and let us know what the bees did with it.

 

[FritzOAQ]

I’ve searched internet for whether to move empty frames or not & have read “yes’s” & “no’s.” I’ve also arrived at the conclusion that I have no idea how a newly installed 3 lbs package of California Carniolan Package Bees should progress. So, here’s a rather lengthy description of my situation here in Southwest Virginia USA. The bees arrived 02May2023 & were put into a 10-frame brood chamber with a 2-frame wide feeder filled with 1:1 sugar water place at the edge of the box. I put pieces of wood blocking the entrance at the sides, leaving about 3 inches open at the center. It’s never appeared to be too small of an opening. Over the next 4-5 days I checked to make sure the queen had escaped her cage & that she was laying eggs - all was good. Since, I’ve looked at them every 1-2 weeks. Around 2-3 weeks ago I took the inside feeder out & put one of those quart jar feeders at the entrance. I’ll share the reason why later. So, yesterday, 17Jun2023, the bees have had almost 7 weeks in their new home. Starting at the side opposite from where the inside feeder was, the first two frames have had nothing done to them. The next frame, 3rd from the side, has nothing done on the outer side and on the inner side some comb drawn out in the center partially filled with homey. I can’t remember whether the next frame, 4th, has brood capped over on both sides or just the inner side. The next frame, 5th has brood capped on both sides & I see eggs in some empty cells. I didn’t remove any more frames but did see capped brood on the outer side of the 6th frame. On the other side, where the feeder was, the two frames that replaced the feeder have nothing done. The next frame in, 3rd, has honey & pollen on the outer side & capped brood on the inner side. I didn’t remove any more frames but did see capped brood on the outer side of the 4th frame.

I've always seen bees with pollen going into the hive. I think all of the tree blooming had past by the first week of May. There's plenty of white clover available. We rent a couple hundred acre farm for raising beef cattle. There's plenty of clover in the fields.

This next rambling I don’t think has anything to do with my question but just in case I’m sharing it. Plus, some may detect some humor lurking there. As I said this happened 2-3 weeks ago. When I was digging dead bees out of the inside feeder, I noticed some white worms. I assume they were wax mouths but have no idea if they were. I read on internet that the sugar water could become “old or contaminated.” These weren’t the words used but I don’t recall the exact description. I decided to remove the feeder. As I was pouring the sugar water out, I noticed lots more dead bees that had gone down the opening at the sides of the feeder. I then noticed an O-ring in the grass & what first looked like some white film but turned out to be instructions for assembling the feeder. I found two more O-rings and rescued the instructions. I read where the O-rings were to be used to hooked from side to side to keep the container from bulging at the top when filled. OK, I guess now is the time I try to explain why I didn’t read the instructions. I probably am a typical old white male who doesn’t read instructions when seen. But, ah, that’s the key. I never saw the instructions. The feeder arrived, all put together … at least it appeared that way to me. It was a black plastic container with a wooded board on the top with two cone “strainers” sticking down into the container for the bees to crawl in & out of to feed. I did make a poor attempt to remove the wooden top but decided that, since it was tightly wedged in place, I might have trouble getting it back in place. Sooo, I never looked in the container. Those are the facts & I’m sticking to them! Just to prove I’m not a bitter person I’m refraining from giving you my estimate of the IQ of the people who packed the feeder. I know, it’s probably pretty close to mine. ☹

I think I’ve convinced you all that it’s time for me to shut up & let you experts speak.

I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to respond. I’ve had Covid and recovery is quite slow. In answer to several questions asked. Yes, I have a crown board with hole which is covered. Yes, I think my hive is a Langstroth type. All of my hives & equipment were bought many years ago.

Since my last post on 18Jun2023, I’ve not done anything with them. On 02Jul2023 I opened up the hive & checked on them. The outside frame had nothing done. The next frame in didn’t have much done. Some cells with a little honey & comb had been being drawn out. The third frame in had good sized larvae on the inner side & lots of eggs on the outer side. I did not inspect the next 5 frames by pulling them out but they looked good, capped brood & honey. The next two frames had nothing done. (Outer frames on the other side of hive.) These frames had only been in place where the feeder was for a week or so.

I guess I should check on them but I have not felt up to the task. Now I’m wondering about this winter & whether they can survive in just one brood box with no super. It’s probably too soon to start worrying about that. Am I correct in assuming I should not put a super on until all 10 frames have been drawn out? Thanks in advance.

 

[drex]

I super up when I have bees on 8+ frames and they are starting to draw the outer frames

 

[FritzOAQ]

I super up when I have bees on 8+ frames and they are starting to draw the outer frames

Took a look at the bees 2 days ago. They were quite upset I was bothering them, unlike previous times when I felt like I might not even need my suit on. I just looked at the tops of the frames on both sides & plenty of bees were on them. I had no question as to whether they were working hard on them. I closed it up without removing any frames & feel all is well. I put a shallow super on. My wife showed me a picture on Internet of a Langstroth type hive with mention of “drawers” sliding in & out. So, I’m very confused exactly what type I have. It’s a box that holds ten frames. You put the frames in & stack them on top of each other.

 

[Wilco]

Took a look at the bees 2 days ago. They were quite upset I was bothering them, unlike previous times when I felt like I might not even need my suit on. I just looked at the tops of the frames on both sides & plenty of bees were on them. I had no question as to whether they were working hard on them. I closed it up without removing any frames & feel all is well. I put a shallow super on. My wife showed me a picture on Internet of a Langstroth type hive with mention of “drawers” sliding in & out. So, I’m very confused exactly what type I have. It’s a box that holds ten frames. You put the frames in & stack them on top of each other.

Get a photo of the hive for us.

In terms of inspections I don't know what your seasons are like but if temperament has changed I'd either suspect a lack of forage, they're being disturbed by something or they're up to something queen related (swarm prep, supercedure, emergency). I would recommend that you check every frame in the brood box when you inspect, checking for eggs and based on your report, potentially queen cells.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I closed it up without removing any frames & feel all is well

There are a few factors in the mix, Fritz, and it's difficult at this distance to give good advice to make the best of your colony.

First of all, it strikes me that you've taken up beekeeping without training or local guidance, and as a consequence are all at sea.

Secondly, you will gain a better understanding of colony progress if you inspect all frames every 7 days without fail. Record briefly what you find. Take a photo or two. Granted, COVID got in the way, but get back on track with the bees or you may come unstuck very quickly.

Main aim, as Wilco listed, is to establish the status of the colony: check for eggs especially (which will confirm that the queen has been there at least up to three days prior) and that brood is in all stages and of a solid pattern.

Are there queen cells? Do not destroy them, but report back with photos of the frames with QCs.

The colony seems reluctant to draw all the frames of foundation, and one cause may be your inadvertent strain on their thermal efficiency. Alternatively, an indicator of swarming intent is when the colony ceases to draw comb.

Take one foundation frame and put it in the centre of the nest. Wait a week, check it, and let us know.

In the meantime, find and join your local beekeeping association and see if you can get hands-on practical guidance while you recover from Covid.