Ascorbic vs. Citric Acid

[TooBee...]

Just watched this 'how to' make a Sugar Block,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2jgHZrH4Ds
at 0:39 seconds in it suggests adding Citric Acid, I have heard beekeepers (on here and else where) advise adding Vitamin C to bee feeds (helps preserve, adjusts Ph, etc.), but this is the first time (I think) I've seen Citric Acid being advised instead.

My understanding was they are not the same thing, Vitamin C is Ascorbic Acid, while Citric Acid is a synthetic food additive.
http://www.differencebetween.net/sc...rences-between-ascorbic-acid-and-citric-acid/

Is this a misunderstanding on the beekeeper in the video, and getting the two substances mixed up, or am I mistaken?

I also notice that the video is using (non-white looking) Apple Cider Vinegar, when other recipes and beekeepers advise using White Vinegar (to prevent mold), any comments on this?

 

[Tomlow bee]

Two different chemical compounds, both of which occur naturally.

Citric acid is a weak organic acid that has the chemical formula C ₆H ₈O ₇. It occurs naturally in citrus fruits. In biochemistry, it is an intermediate in the citric acid cycle, which occurs in the metabolism of all aerobic organisms.-Wikipedia

Formula:-C6H8O7

While

Vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid and L-ascorbic acid, is a vitamin found in food and used as a dietary supplement. The disease scurvy is prevented and treated with vitamin C-containing foods or dietary supplements.Wikipedia

Formula:-C6H8O6

Note the different chemical formulae. Both are naturally occuring and both can be synthesised artifically.

As to whether both work in bee feed, i havent a clue!

 

[Finman]

.
To add ascorbin or citric acid to bees' food is based on non scientic.

Idea is mimic perhaps acid honey. But no serious bee feeding advice tell to do so.

Many say, that C vitamin is important to bees, but when we read the chemistry of royal jelly, it has very little C-vitamin.

 

[Noddy]

I use Ascorbic acid, 3g to 1L of mix. I do not get any mould in the feeders or stored syrup. I don't add any apple cider vinegar. I also add a few drops of lemon grass oil, it seems to help the bees realise the syrup is there.

 

[Finman]

I also notice that the video is using (non-white looking) Apple Cider Vinegar, when other recipes and beekeepers advise using White Vinegar (to prevent mold), any comments on this?

Based on nothing.

I use nothing in autumn in feeders and syrup does not take mold.

Molding happens, when condensation water drops onto syrup and dilutes the syrup. But do not keep so long the syrup in feeder that it starts to ferment.

Strong syrup stops fermenting and mold growing.

 

[Finman]

few drops of lemon grass oil, it seems to help the bees realise the syrup is there.

I put a little bit honey into the bee champer of the feeder, and bees find the syrup.
.

 

[Goran]

Just watched this 'how to' make a Sugar Block,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2jgHZrH4Ds
at 0:39 seconds in it suggests adding Citric Acid, I have heard beekeepers (on here and else where) advise adding Vitamin C to bee feeds (helps preserve, adjusts Ph, etc.), but this is the first time (I think) I've seen Citric Acid being advised instead.

My understanding was they are not the same thing, Vitamin C is Ascorbic Acid, while Citric Acid is a synthetic food additive.
http://www.differencebetween.net/sc...rences-between-ascorbic-acid-and-citric-acid/

Is this a misunderstanding on the beekeeper in the video, and getting the two substances mixed up, or am I mistaken?

I also notice that the video is using (non-white looking) Apple Cider Vinegar, when other recipes and beekeepers advise using White Vinegar (to prevent mold), any comments on this?

Here is widely used citric acid for inverting ( acidic inverted sugar syrup), I use it myself for making fondants.

There are acidic and enzymatic hydrolysis of sucrose. Acidic is faster and cheaper, enzymatic is safer.

For ascorbic acid is said it helps in treatment of colonies with chalk brood - I never tried it, can't say is it really effective.

There is one nice book of G.F. Taranov - Food and nutrition of the bees - I hope I translated the title correct.. I don't know is it translated in English..

 

[Finman]

.
Beekeeping researchers say, that there is no chemical cure for chalkbrood. Only changing the queen may help.

The fact is that bees do not need inverted winter sugar. Normal sugar is good.

.

 

[SDM]

.
To add ascorbin or citric acid to bees' food is based on non scientic.

Idea is mimic perhaps acid honey. But no serious bee feeding advice tell to do so.

Many say, that C vitamin is important to bees, but when we read the chemistry of royal jelly, it has very little C-vitamin.

There's plenty of science supporting the use of ascorbic acid.

 

[SDM]

Here's some reading for you.
This was the clincher for me, who wouldn't want 33% lower mean bee losses.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1MUJDjvbrBWSM7_TanuNm4

But there's other benefits too to hypopharyngeal gland development .

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjACegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw3FaSZu0TrhZn5BD7MEP0Zv

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAFegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2_Ze81BhzST9zpYsCm5gGS

 

[Finman]

There's plenty of science supporting the use of ascorbic acid.

Interesting researches, really.

Royal jelly vitamins tell that B-group vitamins are most important.

 

[Finman]

.
Research 1985 tells, that feeding C-vitamin does not add brood. It says too that larva stage is able to syntesize C-vitamin by itself. Quite many animal makes its own C-vitamin.

30% of wintering bees will die without C-vitamin feeding. Amazing result.

There are much writings about bee losses in winter. No writing mentions that C-vitamin is so essential. It has been researched that good quality pollen is essential to generate wintering bees. Well generated fat body tissue is the key factor.

Fat body tissue is important store tissue in all insects.

 

[SDM]

Interesting researches, really.

Royal jelly vitamins tell that B-group vitamins are most important.

Don't adult bees synthesize these ?

 

[Finman]

Don't adult bees synthesize these ?

I have not met a scientigic report, which tells about vitamins and bees. It is said that bees need vitamins, but nowhere it said, which and how much.
Individual beekeepers may told what ever.

Eastern Europe's bee chemistry is quite different that of western universities'.
Western world beekeeping has as much magic as the East.

Like that sucrose inverting. Bees live as well without inverting. Our bees live with Lidl sugar 9 month a year. But they need of course real pollen, witch has other nutritiens than energy.

 

[Finman]

.
Research 2014 says that feeding 2000 mg/litre 1:1 syrup increase brood amount about double

Where to compare. Lets say, that this spring for example I had in hives brood 4 frames and bees occupyed 5 frames. I think that this is maximum amount of brood. Brood area grows when more bees emerge.
5 frames bees cannot rear 6 frames brood.

 

[TooBee...]

Here's some reading for you.
This was the clincher for me, who wouldn't want 33% lower mean bee losses.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1MUJDjvbrBWSM7_TanuNm4

But there's other benefits too to hypopharyngeal gland development .

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjACegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw3FaSZu0TrhZn5BD7MEP0Zv

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAFegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2_Ze81BhzST9zpYsCm5gGS

Those Links are fabulous, thanks for them

 

[TooBee...]

.
Beekeeping researchers say, that there is no chemical cure for chalkbrood. Only changing the queen may help.
.

I am certain that I read that the cause of Chalkbrood was 1. a High Humidity AND 2. a sudden drop in temperature, BOTH together triggers the Chalkbrood Spores to germinate. So changing the Queen may help in that she may produce brood that can regulate the Humidity and Heat within the Hive better, or the seasonal temp. / humidity changes may no longer be best suited to the germination of their spores?

Either way, very good, draft-less insulation will prevent the sudden drop in temperature, and as long as the colony is strong enough with plenty of stores, the heat should stay up enough to prevent the temp. dropping low enough to allow germination.

 

[Finman]

I am certain that I read that the cause of Chalkbrood was 1. a High Humidity AND 2. a sudden drop in temperature, BOTH together triggers the Chalkbrood Spores to germinate. So changing the Queen may help in that she may produce brood that can regulate the Humidity and Heat within the Hive better, or the seasonal temp. / humidity changes may no longer be best suited to the germination of their spores?

.

May bee. I had bad chalkbrood 10 years and then I bred away the disease. With selective breeding it vanished.

It needs immune genepool, and that is it.

As long as you accept chalkbrood in you apiary and explain all kind of things, it will be there.
.

 

[SDM]

I get chalk brood in small amounts on the same 2 sites every spring. Both sites need wellies to get to the hives in spring. I could move this year's chalk brood free colonies to those sites and for sure they'd have some next spring
Finman, your colder winter temps also carry a lot less moisture. I think it's one of those occasions where location makes all the difference. Genetics will help, but our climate is somewhat ideal for ascophera apis. It's likely always to be more of an issue here.