Bee puzzle - eggs but no queen

I'm stumped.

A new queen had seemingly started laying in a colony about 3 weeks after emerging. A few double eggs etc, but nothing to worry about I thought.

She's been laying now for 2\3 weeks and the brood is predominantly drone and in a very unsatisfactory pattern. After consulting an experience local beekeeper, his advice was to requeen. I have a spare queen, mated and laying that I can use from another colony that'll be united in the next day or two (or I was thinking of just uniting her colony with the poor one).

However, I've never seen the poor queen, and still can't find her. My very experienced beekeeper couldn't. Three of us have split the hive and looked in sections - all section. No luck. I'm stumped. There's new eggs, so I know someone's laid in the last day. They're all at the bottom of cells, though occasionally I'm still seeing some doubles/triples.

I can also see capped worker brood, or at least what looks like it, next to the profusion of drone brood.

So, much as it seems there's no queen to be found, I conclude that she MUST be there somewhere and that it can't be laying workers, as there's worker brood (though not much). Biologically, it can't be a worker.

I've always spotted queens easily, even youngsters. Her sisters and mother are large and distinctive. Am I missing something? Could she be a small runt?

I can actually unite the small colony with the good queen with this poor colony, using the newspaper method, but am worried that I'll lose the good one in the ensuing scuffle. Though if the poor queen is indeed a runt (if that exists), can I hope that the good one has better odds?

Any advice or opinions?
Thanks

Remove that dud queen. Murphy's Law and she will be quicker than a well-rounded queen.

Try shaking them out frame by frame onto a white cloth on a sloping board and allow them to run back into a fresh box, with you watching carefully, adding empty frames back to the fresh box as you go. A different way of spotting the queen.

You should have some idea if she is likely a runt - like, how was she reared? A Q/E under the new brood box might not work nor sieving the bees, also.

oliver90owner said:

Remove that dud queen. Murphy's Law and she will be quicker than a well-rounded queen.

Try shaking them out frame by frame onto a white cloth on a sloping board and allow them to run back into a fresh box, with you watching carefully, adding empty frames back to the fresh box as you go. A different way of spotting the queen.

You should have some idea if she is likely a runt - like, how was she reared? A Q/E under the new brood box might not work nor sieving the bees, also.

Click to expand...

Thanks, should have thought of something like that. Will attempt shaking out tomorrow. I have no real reason for suspecting she was a runt, as she was raised within the colony as what I would consider to be a good example of a swarm cell. Dates all good, ie pretty textbook. I'm suspecting she's small only because I just can't see her!

Any chance of you posting a picture of the patchy drone brood pattern? I ask this as your description strikes me as being descriptive of laying workers.

Teemore said:

Any chance of you posting a picture of the patchy drone brood pattern? I ask this as your description strikes me as being descriptive of laying workers.

Click to expand...

I would put money on it being laying worker(s). Multiple eggs, lots of drone brood, no sign of queen after so much trying to find her. Put a test frame in and see what happens then you'll have your answer.

Teemore said:

Any chance of you posting a picture of the patchy drone brood pattern? I ask this as your description strikes me as being descriptive of laying workers.

Click to expand...

Thanks all, will try for photo later. However, there's also worker brood (it's minimal, but there nonetheless).

Still can't find her.

I've even wondered whether there's some bee phenomenon, where drone brood is shrunken and capped as worker!!! Then I could treat as laying worker! I really am stumped this time.

a couple of pics would really help, preferably from an oblique angle.

So far my money is on laying worker.

It's important to sort it out now in order to build up the colony in good order for over-wintering.

richardbees said:

a couple of pics would really help, preferably from an oblique angle.

So far my money is on laying worker.

It's important to sort it out now in order to build up the colony in good order for over-wintering.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I appreciate the help! Will be opening up this afternoon for another search, so will take some photos. It's starting to look a little messy in there as I think there's also neglected drone brood (alarming to look at as a relative novice, as initially the EFB alarm bells rang. Had experienced beek (and SBI) take a look and confirmed no EFB though).

Ok, so I'm thinking faulty queen because (recap):
A. Eggs appeared 3 weeks after emergence of a queen (not conclusive, but simplest explanation)
B. there's brood that looks like worker - normal size, worker, capped.
C. All eggs have been in base of cells and in very occasional multiples of no more than 3.

BUT!
Despite extensive multiple person searches, have not seen her - ever. Am usually good at spotting them.

QUESTION....

Could I have confused some kind of problem with capped drone brood (perhaps some virus that makes drone brood shrunken) that makes it look like worker brood? No one local can answer this question and there's nothing on line that I can find. I just keep thinking laying workers, but I can't get over this one obstacle.

I really want to give the colony every chance to recover, but I'm running out of ideas!

Again, will post photos later, but any ideas on the worker-type brood in mean time?

Photos

So, still no signs of any queen. Still think I can see worker brood, but have taken some example photos. New addition in the colony is a numbe of laid up queen cells (estimate 4-5 days old) complete with royal jelly. These cells are all over 2 frames in the super, so whatever laid them has been up there for certain!

Can only get one photo to upload, but I'm hoping it will show the mix of brood...

Help!

Drone laying queen of the incompletely mated type and which the bees are trying to supersede .

masterBK said:

Drone laying queen of the incompletely mated type and which the bees are trying to supersede .

Click to expand...

that's what I'd suspected but just can't find her, whatever I do! Was beginning to think I may have misidentified worker brood, I was that
Have tried splitting off and sorting through frames and shaking out in front of hive. Haven't put through QE, as she's clearly small and tricksy, so probably won't work.

Have a lovely queen waiting to go in, but need to find her first! Any suggestions?

Thanks so much for all advice so far.

You said: "She's been laying now for 2\3 weeks and the brood is predominantly drone and in a very unsatisfactory pattern" and " can't find the queen"..

Sounds like a perfect description of laying workers.

If now you are thinking laying workers, it may be time to call time on this colony.

There will be fewer and fewer house bees to support the brood, so fewer useful bees transferred in any unite. There comes a time when the plusses are outweighed by the minuses......it may be time to call it a day and let them slowly ie off, or even terminate them.

RAB

oliver90owner said:

If now you are thinking laying workers, it may be time to call time on this colony.

There will be fewer and fewer house bees to support the brood, so fewer useful bees transferred in any unite. There comes a time when the plusses are outweighed by the minuses......it may be time to call it a day and let them slowly ie off, or even terminate them.

RAB

Click to expand...

I really am beginning to think that it may be time to call it a day with this colony. Though I'm still unsure about laying workers (as I can see worker brood, I feel), I'm seeing some viruses creep in (bit of chalkbrood/sac brood). Laying workers or invisible queen - the end result may be the same, as you say.
I want to think I've done all I can as a beekeeper to try and keep the colony running, but I think that nature is telling me something...

The queen and small colony I have on standby is doing very well in a polynuc (2 frames initially, but rapidly expanding). Think I might just concentrate on building them up in time for winter. It's good to have an option, but as a relatively new beekeeper, I still feel a little sad about the possibility of losing a colony, if that doesn't sound too sappy!

Thanks.

What about just shaking the bees out onto the ground? Is this colony within 3 feet or so of another hive?

I have shaken out many colonies like this - two colonies this year, without finding the queen first. I shake the bees off each comb and they are allowed in to a nearby hive without too much, if any, carnage and the bees seem to know which queen to keep....Or have I just been lucky over the years???

Of course, the usual proviso applies - don't unite any colony where there are any suspicions about colony health.

Dubs

- that is an excellent photo.

I strongly advise that you dump that colony = take the BB 8ft away, shake ALL THE BEES onto the ground, remove all the comb containing brood and replace with new foundation

Ideally you replace on the same site a BB containing your standby Q /frames....is your nuc within reasonable distance i.e. moving 3ft a day to do this?

richard

richardbees said:

Dubs

- that is an excellent photo.

I strongly advise that you dump that colony = take the BB 8ft away, shake ALL THE BEES onto the ground, remove all the comb containing brood and replace with new foundation

Ideally you replace on the same site a BB containing your standby Q /frames....is your nuc within reasonable distance i.e. moving 3ft a day to do this?

richard

Click to expand...

Thanks very much for advice. I'd placed the nuc right next to the problem colony, as I'd anticipated a combining of one sort or another, so at least that bit's sorted!

If I shake out (and if I want to save anything from this colony, then something like this is my only option at this stage, I feel), then what's the likelihood of the old queen/LWs finding her/their way back. I know that there's mixed accounts on this (as ever!). (However, I'm still assuming I have a queen of sorts, or why do I see worker brood?!).

Definitely good to replace all brood frames. New queen and colony in 6 frame nuc, only across 3 frames, but looking nice. Can place them in new bb, along with some stores frames from old bb.

The only thing that's stopping me from racing up to my hives and shaking out right now, is that I really don't want this new queen to bite the dust!

So I guess my options are:
1. Shake and risk it, but get a decent sized colony to bring on (though bees from old colony now getting on a bit, as they were AS on 30 Apr - foraging well though).
2. Write off old colony and concentrate on bringing on nuc as replacement.

Mmm.

Any views (or pointers on flaws in my thinking) very gratefully received, but thanks all so far.
T

T
good news that you moved the Nuc up alongside as, going by the photo and your description, in my opinion you should go for option 2)

There is still plenty of time to raise a spare Q/nuc

richard

You are right that you have some worker brood in there but there is a very poor brood pattern there with drone brood popping up in the middle of worker brood - if you see something like this in the future you will know that there is a problem in the hive. PArt of the problem in this instance appears to be a poorly mated queen as MasterBK states. Hopefully disease isn't playing a part also.
There is nectar (or syrup?) appearing in a lot of the empty cells which might be an indication that they are tight on space. Have you been feeding this colony?