Patternless foundation, or negative patterned foundation

Hello everyone

I read in an article on the web named "Low Cost Foundation" that bees do equally well with foundation embossed with a cell pattern than with foundation that is smooth. The only downside of using smooth foundation is that the bees start making the cells at random, which means that you don't get that typical, ultrasymmetrical "bee comb" pattern that the books say bees "ought to" make.

So, this made me wonder whether a negative embossed pattern would help the bees (coax them) to create a more consistent pattern that looks more traditional. I mean, if I have a roller with a bee comb pattern on it that is usually used with ink and paper, and I roll it across a smooth sheet of wax foundation once, to create a slight pattern in the wax, will the bees follow my lead?

Do you know of any studies about this, or experience with this?

Thanks
Samuel

Samuel, your link isn't working for me, just goes to Bees for development site. Interesting question though, looking forward to the answers ....

I see where you are coming from but I have my doubts that an indentation would be built out by the bees, I think they would stick to random cells, may be worth a try though. One would think it had been tried before trying to build out the hexagon in the interests of ease but..... Maybe not!

blackcavebees said:

Samuel, your link isn't working for me...

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Try removing the quote at the end of the link:
http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/Low cost Foundation _21_.pdf

enrico said:

I have my doubts that an indentation would be built out by the bees. I think they would stick to random cells.

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Another way of making a pattern on the smooth foundation that I thought of is to use the device they use to loosen heather honey. You can get one of those for very cheap at any bee store. It wouldn't make a comb pattern in the wax but it will make intentations (or holes) in a hexagonal pattern.

Another possible way of getting a pattern on the wax might be to take existing foundation (or: plastic foundation) and coat it with a waxy substance and simply press it against the smooth comb. The pattern will be raised, but very shallow.

I think I will stick with the bought stuff, much less hassle!
E

enrico said:

I think I will stick with the bought stuff, much less hassle!

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The reason for the hassle would be to save money. I don't mind smooth foundation, but if there is a simple way to get the bees to be a bit more organised, then it's worth looking into.

ugcheleuce said:

The reason for the hassle would be to save money. I don't mind smooth foundation, but if there is a simple way to get the bees to be a bit more organised, then it's worth looking into.

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Go foundationless ...then they build perfectly uniform cells exactly how they want to do it ...

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Without good patern bees tend to make too much drone cells. And drone cells produce mites

Drone cells here and there and inspections are painfull Jobs.

pargyle said:

Go foundationless ...then they build perfectly uniform cells exactly how they want to do it ...

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The Most expencive habit and no need TO discuss about quality OF Combs.
Awfull.

Finman said:

The Most expencive habit and no need TO discuss about quality OF Combs.
Awfull.

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Rubbish .... Can't be bothered to argue with you.

pargyle said:

Rubbish .... Can't be bothered to argue with you.

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With your one summer experiences. Me too. I have seen enough those formless combs. They bring only harms.

It would be easy to make a layer of wax on water surface and you give a "formless foundation". But no one use them.

That natural comb this is a religion. Nothing positive facts behind it.



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Finman said:

.Without good patern bees tend to make too much drone cells.

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Do you think bees would tend to make more drone cells with smooth foundation than with no foundation? Or less?

pargyle said:

Go foundationless... then they build perfectly uniform cells exactly how they want to do it...

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Yes, but at what cost? If I provide them with the wax, then they don't have to make the wax themselves. I think the booster they'd get from having all that extra wax make up more than enough for the slightly odd cell pattern.

The question is not whether the odd cell pattern is good or bad, but whether one can influence the bees to build better patterns without providing them with starter cells.

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Answer is very clear: Not good idea.
Idea has been know long time, but I do not know, who use it.

Many use strip system with wires and without wires.

As said, foundation wax needs 7 kg honey to be made.
Kg price is then 6 x 7= £ 48 ???
Foundation price is in UK ....

If you give wax to the foundation factory, you get good foundations with cost ..../kg

In Finland prices are

- mere foundations £10/kg
- with own wax £3/kg

One sheet of Foundation in Langstroth is 100 g .
1 kg is for one box.

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Good hive needs 5 kg wax at the beginning. It is worth of £ 250 as honey.
About 40 kg honey

If a hive has open space, it may do 20%-25% drones out of brood, and then it is not able to make surplus honey.

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Mixture of drone cells and workers cells. You cannot use this as brood frame.

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Bee behaviour and combs

http://www.beebehavior.com/foundationless_frames_brood_area.php


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Finman said:

With your one summer experiences. Me too. I have seen enough those formless combs. They bring only harms.

It would be easy to make a layer of wax on water surface and you give a "formless foundation". But no one use them.

That natural comb this is a religion. Nothing positive facts behind it.

.

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With all your years experience I would suggest you need to train your bees better if they can only build on foundation ... Formless combs ?... What about these then ? ... 13 of them this year in my FIRST hive, not a misshapen one amongst them ... Why do you insist on decrying anyone or anything that does not conform to your restricted ways of keeping bees. Your methods may work but not everyone wants to follow them .... and their methods may work just as well.

ugcheleuce said:

Yes, but at what cost? .

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Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but there is a lot of discussion on here about acaricide residues in wax foundation.

For me the most puzzling issue is how to make sure wireless foundation is right way up.

TryingToLetThemBee said:

...
For me the most puzzling issue is how to make sure wireless foundation is right way up.

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There is no right way up. On one side of the sheet the 'Y' marks in the hollow bits point up and on the other side they point down. I think some people suggest one should arrange the sheets in a specific way (for example, two sheets with the Ys pointing up facing each other, or not - I don't know) - but I don't think it matters. Kitta

TryingToLetThemBee said:

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but there is a lot of discussion on here about acaricide residues in wax foundation.

For me the most puzzling issue is how to make sure wireless foundation is right way up.

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acaricide residues in wax was relevant question 10 years ago, but not any more.

that wireless foundation question I do not understand. Pointing up?