Winter and Summer thermal hive cover for wooden hives

I think this is a very interesting, I lost 3 out of 4 hives last winter. And although I am sure there were several factors at plays here - the cold must have been one of them. I would be interested to know whether you have put ventilation in these lids ? I would think that you would, the lids would remove wind chill, but ventilation would be required to avoid condensation. Comments would be appreciated.

Cars said:

I think this is a very interesting, I lost 3 out of 4 hives last winter. And although I am sure there were several factors at plays here - the cold must have been one of them. I would be interested to know whether you have put ventilation in these lids ? I would think that you would, the lids would remove wind chill, but ventilation would be required to avoid condensation. Comments would be appreciated.

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unneccessary ventilation lets the heat out... condensation recovers heat(why are modern boilers condensing)... Condensation is only a problem if the condensate is cold. in winter the bees drink condensation if they are warm enough to move about with these covers they will be. A modern house is well insulated and almost air tight to conserve heat, the same laws of physics apply and the bees evolved to prefer bottom entrances and seal up holes.

Anduril said:

No man kept them in skeps

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... and killed the colony every year to fetch the honey out...

Apis Mellifera is a native species of northern Europe. It doesnt need us to survive here, it needs us to stop chainsawing its native habitat. We could at least give them cavities that are as insulating as the average tree rather than ones that loose 4 to 5 times the heat.

with insulation:
honey production is higher (ITLD)
spring build up is faster (ITLD)
winter survival is higher(ITLD)

So whats the counter argument again?

derekm said:

in winter the bees drink condensation if they are warm enough to move about with these covers they will be..

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That is not true. Bees cannot drink such amount water what comes from their respiration.
Water does not condensate in such places where a bee cluster is.


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A modern house is well insulated and almost air tight to conserve heat, the same laws of physics apply and the bees evolved to prefer bottom entrances and seal up holes.

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People need oxygen and stinking fumes must be ventilated from rooms.

.

Cars said:

but ventilation would be required to avoid condensation. .

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In my cuntry condensation is avoided with rising the heat of champer.
Idea is to move condenstaion outsider of hive.

- First, you must restrict the wintering champer to the size of the cluster.
- condensation happes on cold surfaces.
- in polyhives the inner cover must have best insulation, if it is not, condensation happens over the cluster.
-when sidewalls are coldest, condensation happens on sidewalls and water drills onto floor.

- in wooden hives water goes into the wood and wood looses its insulation values.
- ply takes water too quite much, about 30% of its weight.

- if condensation happens onto food frames, food sucks too much water and food starts to swell out from cells. Bees try to suck drilling food and they will become sick

- nosema hit easily to the hives which ventilation is not OK.

derekm said:

... and killed the colony every year to fetch the honey out...

Apis Mellifera is a native species of northern Europe. It doesnt need us to survive here, it needs us to stop chainsawing its native habitat. We could at least give them cavities that are as insulating as the average tree rather than ones that loose 4 to 5 times the heat.

with insulation:
honey production is higher (ITLD)
spring build up is faster (ITLD)
winter survival is higher(ITLD)

So whats the counter argument again?

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Oh dear! Do you not know that bees were overwintered in skeps, some of which had small entrances near the top. They survived this way for 500 years during the mini ice age before the modern day hive.

Finman said:

That is not true. Bees cannot drink such amount water what comes from their respiration.
Water does not condensate in such places where a bee cluster is.


.

People need oxygen and stinking fumes must be ventilated from rooms.

.

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What bee cluster? if you insulate enough they can come out of cluster any time and go to where the water is. I didnt say they drank ALL the water but condensation serves a need. The excess runs out.
Bees have the entrance open all the time thats more ventilation than we have in our homes.

Finman said:

In my cuntry condensation is avoided with rising the heat of champer.
Idea is to move condenstaion outsider of hive.

- First, you must restrict the wintering champer to the size of the cluster.
- condensation happes on cold surfaces.

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Agreed to you need to match the top surface area to the size of the colony.

Condensation can occur on any surface warm or cold that is below the dew point temperature. Thus you can get condensation on brood temperature surfaces. if the air at the top is at 40c and at 75% RH it will condense on surfaces at 35C

Condensation inside a well insulated container, is more energy efficient than moving the air to condense it outside. The action of condensing warms up the surface.

Anduril said:

Oh dear! Do you not know that bees were overwintered in skeps, some of which had small entrances near the top. They survived this way for 500 years during the mini ice age before the modern day hive.

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they survived here before the land bridge was inundated in tree ... because bees have been kept cold before doesnt make it rational to do it now.

Finally got round to acquiring some 50mm kingspan to use for roofspace insulation, but am undecided on how best to use it...

I assume the safe option is to get an empty super or an eke to lift the roof up, and just cut the kingspan to fit inside that? Or do you just stick it straight on the cover board, and not worry that the roof 'floats' a bit?

Or is there some other way that I'm missing?

Any suggestions accepted!

The only must is that you get an airtight seal between the brood box and the kingspan. A sheet of kingspan can replace the cover and the roof if you want.

I enjoyed your talk last night on the subject but missed the opportunity to ask one last question. How much of a gap do you leave between the sides when using a kingspan cover/slip as tea cosy for a wooden hive? The reason I ask is my metal roof is say 0.5-1cm bigger than the broodbox which has itself handles and i'm worried that too tight a cover/slip will get damaged and a too loose cover/slip will negate the point of applying it.

remoulded said:

I enjoyed your talk last night on the subject but missed the opportunity to ask one last question. How much of a gap do you leave between the sides when using a kingspan cover/slip as tea cosy for a wooden hive? The reason I ask is my metal roof is say 0.5-1cm bigger than the broodbox which has itself handles and i'm worried that too tight a cover/slip will get damaged and a too loose cover/slip will negate the point of applying it.

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For others:
I gave a talk to the Bournemouth and Dorset BKA last night... Many thanks to Skyhook for the invitation. I took along one of the covers for a ****** Nuc as well as a van full of other "props"

...


The hive cover goes straight on to crown board and replaces the roof. we found making the internal dimensions 10mm greater than the crown board worked.
A really tight fit isnt necessary as the sealed joints (inside and outside) make the cover into a "diving bell" trapping the hot air. There were pictures in this thread but they disppeared.. here they are again