Feral Bees- Catherine Thompson

Has anyone heard new information on Catherine Thompsons study of feral bee colonies. Verbally it would seem that of a study of her feral colonies suggests that none survive more than 3 years. This suggests that beekeepers are indeed entirely maintaining the population of bees in the uk and that, untreated for varroa, bees will simply not survive for longer that 2-3 years, whether feral or in hives.
Are these statements supported by other research (readable to laymen).

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That information is in same line with that knowledge what we got in Finland 30 years ago. Mite killed hives in 2-3 years when it entered to beeyards and beeks had no knowledge what to do.



Here is a new research from uSA

Bee Culture;4/1/2012, p6


ABSTRACT

The article focuses on the survey for the lost of bee colonies in New Jersey in winter 2010-2011 and the influence of Varroa destructor on their survival. The survey collects data on the number of colonies managed alive by New Jersey Beekeepers Association members on December 1, 2010 that survive until March 15, 2011. The survey reveals that 1,290 of the 1,939 colonies were reported alive on April 1, 2011. Moreover, 65% colony mortality was reported during non treatment of v. destructor.

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There is new knowledge from Scotland too. When mite load is over 2 000 in a hive, winter dead outs will appear.

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That would be bad news indeed.
Would a feral colony that swarms reset the cycle? So if feral colonies produce swarms they extend the life of that group.

Bob Bee said:

that none survive more than 3 years.

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Bob, that bit rings true. Not heard of the lady though.

Bob Bee said:

This suggests that beekeepers are indeed entirely maintaining the population of bees in the uk

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I don't believe that necessarily follows. In 3 years a feral colony can give off several swarms. The net result is a population increase.
Think of human populations - often countries with fastest growing population also have a low life expectancy.

Having said that, I bet most ferals have starved by now.

Chris B said:

Bob, that bit rings true. Not heard of the lady though.



I don't believe that necessarily follows. In 3 years a feral colony can give off several swarms. The net result is a population increase.
Think of human populations - often countries with fastest growing population also have a low life expectancy.

Having said that, I bet most ferals have starved by now.

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Yep I can see that nests can be repopulated regularly by first or second year swarms from other feral ( or kept) colonies, that would account for all the tales of colonies that people think have been 'alive' for thirty years etc. but with the poor last three years how sustainable would that be in the UK ?.

Bob Bee said:

Has anyone heard new information on Catherine Thompsons study of feral bee colonies. Verbally it would seem that of a study of her feral colonies suggests that none survive more than 3 years. This suggests that beekeepers are indeed entirely maintaining the population of bees in the uk and that, untreated for varroa, bees will simply not survive for longer that 2-3 years, whether feral or in hives.
Are these statements supported by other research (readable to laymen).

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Well ... she was still doing talks at Associations until February of this year:

"Bee Improvement for All

A one-day event organised by the

Bee Improvement Programme for Cornwall (BIPCo)

To be held at Dobwalls Memorial Hall, Higher Meadow, Dobwalls PL14 6LS Saturday 2nd February 2013

Commencing 9.30am (for 10.00) until 4.00pm

Guest Speaker: Catherine Thompson from Leeds University

(Morphometry and DNA analysis of ‘native/near-native’ honey bees)"


Anyone go there from West Cornwall ?

Chris B said:

The net result is a population increase.
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The result is that colonies die off. That has happened in every country.

Bob Bee said:

but with the poor last three years how sustainable would that be in the UK ?.

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Not sure but it's a simple equation. If varroa, starvation, queen failure etc. combined kill more colonies than are produced by swarming/reproduction, the population will drop. And vice versa. Without any human intervention at all there would be big fluctuations in the population, same as most other insects. They can be quite vulnerable but their biggest advantage is reproductive capacity whenever the conditions favour it. If the population ever gets too big, starvation will level it.

Finman said:

The result is that colonies die off. That has happened in every country.

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Not every colony. Not all at the same time. Has there ever been a case where the population goes to zero?

The average is longer than that in France, more like 6 years however as has been pointed out if colonies didn't fail we wouldn't be able to move for bees everywhere just like so many other species that aren't "managed" the balance is maintained over a given time cycle. Of course human activities can and do play a large role, habitat destruction, pollution and poisoning will all have played a role in making life hard for feral colonies.

It's likely that the number of natural or wild colonies has always been quite small anyway and has for many years, (100's?), been augmented from apiaries or managed colonies.

Chris

Chris B said:

Has there ever been a case where the population goes to zero?

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Of the feral colonies around this area they did, they never increased in numbers, but may of elsewhere perhaps.

Chris Luck said:

The average is longer than that in France, more like 6 years however as has been pointed out if colonies didn't fail we wouldn't be able to move for bees everywhere just like so many other species that aren't "managed" the balance is maintained over a given time cycle. Of course human activities can and do play a large role, habitat destruction, pollution and poisoning will all have played a role in making life hard for feral colonies.

It's likely that the number of natural or wild colonies has always been quite small anyway and has for many years, (100's?), been augmented from apiaries or managed colonies.

Chris

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Undoubtedly, but my query is really specific to varroa. How safe is it to say that untreated, colonies will only survive 2-3 years and is it possible that we could see the complete collapse of feral colonies if there was no husbandry. as above, could it get down to zero.....

Of course feral colonies don't die out. natural cell size plus self selection ensure they don't.

Err.. natural beekeepers say so - it must be true.

We've always had a few ferals round us Pete, but impossible to say where they come from as it's also got a fair population of managed hives.

My one and only time taking a feral colony from a chimney was interesting. It was very healthy, probably fairly new although I took it in January. There was another colony on the next floor down, on it's last legs really, a clear varroa kill, DWV and damaged brood. I was told the swarm in the chimney came from the other colony originally. Both nests had huge amounts of comb.

I have reasons to doubt that the wild population is zero
anywhere where bees can survive (decidiuos tree line) and there is suitable habitat and nest sites.
1) from science :https://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/seeley_apidologie_2007(38)19-29.pdf
Bees and varoa in the wild seem to be adjusting to each other

2)from the number of well developed colony removals we see on this forum
3) personal knowledge: I know of two wild colonies in buildings in my locality.
Nobody is looking round here in the unmanaged woodland which is the bees natural habitiat

Further question what was the lifetime of wild colonies before varroa?
3 year colony lifetime? thats only slightly worse than the national beekeeper average for the country. (25% losses).
And that lifetime is probably enough to maintain the population.

Chris B said:

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Having said that, I bet most ferals have starved by now.

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in a poor nest site or poor stores yes.
A well established colony in a tree nest. No they will survive this (Bees survived in northern europe for millenia without man) The problem is more the lack of good tree nests for the wild bees.

The trouble is Derek, any of last year's swarms that went feral had no chance to store enough for winter (assuming they didn't starve in the summer!). Any survivors from previous seasons might have had a good reserve but also a bigger varroa load to bring them down. Good/bad nest sites is only a secondary consideration in those circumstances. A few will get through it though I expect.

derekm said:

I have reasons to doubt that the feral population is zero

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of course it is not. Reseaches have said that it varroa killed 90%.

However, in Finland we had a strong German Black Bee stock, and when varroa arrived to district, it was totally sweeped away in 10 years. We cannot find them here even nursed.

Reason is that black bug was not nice to nurse. And it did not like nursing like medication.

We have talked much about ferals and natural combs. It is dreaming.

Like guys on Beemaster forum says that do nothing to varroa
but official researches tell about huge hive losses every year .

But you cannot win nature lovers in debating. Only what I can admit is that they are your hives. Do as you will.

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I know of a feral colony that has been in a tree for at least 4 years, dark black bees, I don't know the state of the colony but there is a lot of activity in the summer.
Just a thought, how long would humans last if we went feral, no medical treatment, vaccinations, operations, antibiotics, they say the human species cannot evolve anymore because of these influences (rightly or wrongly) but at least bees do have a chance to a certain degree although heavily intoxicated by
chemicals from sprays. Will the bees fight back and produce a strain of varroa resistant bees, there are a few promising reports and Wales has the lowest varroa populated hives in the UK for some reason (must be the rain lol)

Chris B said:

The trouble is Derek, any of last year's swarms that went feral had no chance to store enough for winter (assuming they didn't starve in the summer!). Any survivors from previous seasons might have had a good reserve but also a bigger varroa load to bring them down. Good/bad nest sites is only a secondary consideration in those circumstances. A few will get through it though I expect.

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Remember the difference in winter food consumption and summer honey production efficency between a poor nest (e.g. a wooden hive) and a good one (a tree nest ) is very very big...