Original national hive plans?

Hi guys

Could any one point me in the direction of the original unmodified national hive plans? Had a look on the Dave C's web site but couldn't see any thing there.

I was hoping to set it up as an over winter project.

Many thanks

Simon

Try this

http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/TDS number 4 national hive.pdf

plumberman said:

Try this

http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/TDS number 4 national hive.pdf

Click to expand...

thats the modified national

Many thanks Plumberman, but I think that is a modified national.

Although a great set of plans and has the right floor, roof, crown board etc. I believe the main difference was on the brood body and the supers in that they were built with scooped hand holds rather than the rebated top and bottom sections but I am only guessing at this as I have only ever seen pictures from out side.

I would really like to get a look at the construction from the inside of the box to see how it accommodated the long lugs or did they use different frames?

Many thanks for all the help.

Simon

A 'National' with rebates cut into the side as hand holds is surely a Commercial? It has the same outer dimensions but is larger inside because it uses a short lugged frame rather than the long lugged frame.

The original National was introduced in 1920. The forerunner of this type of hive was the 'Economic Hive' which was championed by Samuel Simmins and was subsequently adopted by the Ministry of Agriculture as... The National Brood Box & Super. It was usually made of 7/8" timber and was 18 1/2" square. It could be made up with either TOP or BOTTOM bee space to suit the requirements of the purchaser.

1946 The first issue of British Standard 1300. This formalised the dimensions of the WBC hive and introduced the 'Improved National Hive' which somehow became translated into the 'Modified National Hive' that we know today. It was proposed in 1944, (due to shortages of certain timber sizes), by Burtt & sons in conjunction with other hive manufacturers. Adoption of Hoffman Spacing was proposed, but largely ignored for all except the short lugged Smith hives. (Dave Cushman)

But the Modified National dates from 1962 as the MAFF leaflet 367 which you can get as a pdf here:

http://www.peak-hives.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/leaflet-367b.pdf

The 1962 version is BSI 1300:1960

Economic Hive here:

Hi Der Alte Fritz

I don’t think (but it could have been) a commercial.

I have made and use a commercial currently and while the same dimensions in the horizontal (I use national super on it), It is much deeper in the frame size than nationals.

However your pic of the economic is excellent I love the roof and the floor with the scoop to let the bees out.

It looks to my untrained eye that it had short lugged frames?


Many thanks for info

If you are interested in the Economic Hive you can read the original book:

300 Per Annum from 30 Acres: Or, a Modern Bee Farm and Its Economic Management
(ISBN 10: 1173802347 / ISBN 13: 9781173802349 )
Samuel Simmins

Bookseller: THE SAINT BOOKSTORE (Southport, MSY, United Kingdom)
Bookseller Rating: 5-star rating
Quantity Available: > 20
Print on Demand

So you can get a brand new "print on demand" (ie digitially scanned and then printed) copy for around £14.

The reason I question if the hive in question was a National is because they always have (even as early as the Economic Hive) the characteristic rebated sides and hand holds as frame lug runners. Whereas the Commercial is just a box with hand holds cut into the wood - very different.

The Simmin book is available as a very rough and ready download here:
£300 per annum download

See also Google books Simmins listing

The history of the long lugged frame is given here Cushman's history

In short most frames had short lugs to start with but were non standard sizes. The long lug was needed when they invented 'metal ends' which needed more wood sticking out from the frame to work and this was around 1877. This resulted in the BRITISH STANDARD FRAME with the long lugs in 1882.

1884 Simmins goes it alone with a different frame size and produces what we now know as the COMMERCIAL hive. So the Economic Hive probably had short lugs but the Simplicity Hive of 1920 used the new long lugs. It is this that is the fore runner of the National which in 1946 becomes the Improved National and later the Modified National.

So your best bet it to track down the dimensions of the Simplicity Hive (not to be confused with the American version!

Many many thanks

looks like many hours of happy reading then hopefully even more hours bashing bits of wood in the shed.

Der Alte Fritz said:

Economic Hive here:

Click to expand...

IIRC the original was a half-double-wall - double at the lug ends and single on the sides. Hence add a panel of your choice over the frame end recesses - those lovely big hand-holds - and instead router out fingertip-numbing recesses

Current flat-packs from most vendors can be made up as top or bottom bee space, just position the lug-end wall to suit. Do please take into account the depth of the metal runners if used, or you'll end up with "mid beespace" boxes as I saw in an Association apiary earlier this week

IIRC the original was a half-double-wall - double at the lug ends and single on the sides. Hence add a panel of your choice over the frame end recesses - those lovely big hand-holds - and instead router out fingertip-numbing recesses

Click to expand...

Not sure about the ECONOMIC, but the SIMPLICITY (UK) certainly was the was you described and one of the characteristics of the National was the double wall and then the wartime Modified National removed the double wall. (I think????)

looks like many hours of happy reading then hopefully even more hours bashing bits of wood in the shed.

Click to expand...

Anyway I would like to hear more of your researches and see the final finished product if you can post pictures.

DanBee said:

Current flat-packs from most vendors can be made up as top or bottom bee space, just position the lug-end wall to suit.

Click to expand...

From the ones I've seen they also need a bit of woodwork - the top rail has a rebate that takes the lug plus the rail it sits on. If you want top space and the rail that rebate has to be cut a beespace lower.

Dave Cushman has a cross section diagram http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/natbrood.html

Compare with his topspace national or 'rational' http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ratsup.html

alanf said:

From the ones I've seen they also need a bit of woodwork - the top rail has a rebate that takes the lug plus the rail it sits on. If you want top space and the rail that rebate has to be cut a beespace lower.

Dave Cushman has a cross section diagram http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/natbrood.html

Compare with his topspace national or 'rational' http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ratsup.html

Click to expand...

topbar definitely needs rebating on thornes & maisemore standards

i can measure an unmodified national super if you want, i only have supers as i burnt the old brood boxes as too far gone

The ones i have consists of two 3/4" long side with inner sides of 1/2" rebated into the 3/4" sides to form the brood area, the middles bearing area is 3/4" thick then the outer is 1/2" board

all the outer sides have hand holds cut in, i remember as i broke them up two variants, on some the 3/4" middle board was a continuous board and other like the cottager hive the 3/4" middle BOARD WAS TWO 3/4" by 1" bars, one closing thetop one closing the bottom

it is nothing like a Commercial hive at all, totaly different dimensions

Thats what i needed.

So its a 3/4 inch board which suports the frame lugs then a 1/2 inch which forms the outer wall.

many many thanks to you all and Rolande on the PM's

Thats the great thing about this fourm!

The thing is, as i keep finding with beekeeping you start off with an idea and then it grows and grows because now i also want to try and make a simplicity hive and or an economic, oh and i also have already in the winter making list a cement foundation press........busy winter! I will post photos when i have them.

flemage said:

So its a 3/4 inch board which suports the frame lugs then a 1/2 inch which forms the outer wall.

Click to expand...

As I read it, a half inch inner wall, a half inch outer wall with a three quarter spacer sandwiched between. The frame lugs are supported by runners attached to the inner wall, which you can see in the picture (thanks MM).

It's similar to the Hedgerow Pete nuc box if you look up the videos except in those the outer wall does not extend all the way to the base, just enough to provide the handhold. Practically, it can be a very simple way of making boxes out of flat sawn sheets without any routing or rebates - just saw and nail.

alanf said:

As I read it, a half inch inner wall, a half inch outer wall with a three quarter spacer sandwiched between. The frame lugs are supported by runners attached to the inner wall, which you can see in the picture (thanks MM).

Click to expand...

Ok, i think i have it now. The frame lug sits on the runner which is on the 1/2 inch inner wall this is then attached to a 3/4 inch spacer board which the frame lug 'hoovers' over. then the 1/2 inch outer wall board. so the frame lug depth should be 1/2 inch + 3/4 inch. well silightly less to give room to move it about few mm's, which should therefore be a stannard national frame lug.

So that means each end wall which carrys the frames lugs is made out of three boards.

Brill thanks

Yes the frame supporting ends are usually a double thickness wall separated by a spacer. In essence like a modern Modified National with an extra board nailed onto the end with hand holds cut into it.

But remember the dimensions have changed. The current standard Modified National is 18 1/8" square as defined in the 1960 MAFF leaflet. I think this size dates from 1944 when they had the aim of using less wood in wartime. This may be the origin of the story that the National was sized so that the maximum number could be made out of single sheet of wood.

The development of this hive started with the Economic - Simplicity - National and they were 18 1/2" square and made from 7/8" wood. Likewise the Commercial was developed by Simmins from the Economic only using his preferred short lugged deeper frame and based on the same external size but developed into the modern day Commercial which is of course 18 5/16" external.

So it would be good to know what size MM supers are in their external dimension and what date they are from.

Strangely enough I saw one of these supers today when at the Association apiary and they must be 18 1/8" because they fitted directly onto modern National brood boxes. The Association only had about three of these and no brood boxes but then they get all kinds of equipment 'donated' to them.

In a corner they had three 'Conquest' hives.